ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
What makes a poem more than 700 years old feel relevant today? The poet Mary Jo Bang is uniquely qualified to answer that question because she has spent the last 20 years translating Dante's "Divine Comedy," that famous trilogy of "Inferno," "Purgatorio" and "Paradiso." These new translations are lively, contemporary and casual. Langston Hughes and Elton John make appearances. She references "The Simpsons" and Edward Snowden. And Mary Jo Bang's reward for reaching the end of this epic journey is that she gets to talk with us about it. Mary Jo Bang, I'm sorry if that's a disappointing prize (laughter).
MARY JO BANG: No, it's not at all disappointing. I'm thrilled to be talking to you, Ari.
SHAPIRO: Well, we're thrilled to have you. Will you begin by just taking us back 20 years to the start of this project? You read a contemporary poem made up of dozens of different translations of the first three lines of "Dante's Inferno." What made you think there's room for one more, I'm going to dive in?
BANG: I was reading that poem, and I was struck with two things. One was how antiquated the language was, even when the translation was quite contemporary. And the other thing I was struck by was that there were no two translations that were alike. And that was a lesson, I think, in the fact that there is no single way to carry over one language into another language. But I also thought, why do these translations always sound as if they were written long ago? And so just as an exercise, I decided I would put those three lines into contemporary English. But I also wanted to incorporate some of the elements that we use in poetry because that's what Dante did. He had a rhyme scheme that was interlocking, so ABA, BCB, CDC. And that creates a kind of sonic momentum.
SHAPIRO: Yeah. And yet, he wrote with this strict meter and rhyme, and you decided not to. Was that an easy decision for you, or did you wrestle with it?
BANG: I wrestled with some aspects of it. I knew I could not maintain the rhyme scheme that he had invented for that poem. English is a rhyme poor language compared to the romance languages.
SHAPIRO: Oh, interesting, it's easier to rhyme in Italian than it is in English.
BANG: Absolutely - because you have those vowel endings on so many words. So I decided that I would substitute contemporary elements like assonance, where you have the same vowel sound, or alliteration, where you have the same consonant sound, and also things called slant rhyme, where it's a close rhyme but not quite, so it doesn't clang to the ear. So this way, it has the sound of contemporary poetry, but it also doesn't get trapped.
SHAPIRO: I think it's time for us to hear an example. Would you read the first few lines that set you off on this epic journey?
BANG: I will.
(Reading) "Inferno," Canto I. Stopped mid-motion in the middle of what we call our life. I looked up and saw no sky, only a dense cage of leaf, tree and twig. I was lost. It's difficult to describe a forest, savage, arduous, extreme in its extremity. I think, and the facts come back, then the fear comes back. Death, I believe, can only be slightly more bitter. I can't address the good I found there until I describe in detail what else I saw.
SHAPIRO: And so even in that first line, leaf, tree and twig, you get that repeating E sound and the repeating T. So even if it doesn't rhyme, you have some of those qualities you were talking about of assonance and alliteration and such.
BANG: Exactly. And the first line - stopped mid-motion in the middle - is a little over the top.
SHAPIRO: (Laughter).
BANG: But I wanted to announce from the get-go that I was going to keep that sense of sonic momentum that rhyme has, but I was going to do it differently.
SHAPIRO: Is it true that when you started this project, you had not even read the whole trilogy? Like, you were taking this crazy leap of faith.
BANG: I had read "Inferno" and "Purgatorio," but I had never read "Paradiso." And when I began, I never dreamed I would translate "Paradiso." The reason I hadn't read it is I had found it unreadable.
SHAPIRO: Your "Paradiso" has so much approachability and relatability. I opened to a random page, which happens to be Canto XXII, and it begins with...
(Reading) Awestruck, I turned to my guide like some little kid who keeps running back to the one in whom they have the most confidence.
Like, you've got momentum. You've got a vivid visual image, and you've got a thing that every reader can relate to.
BANG: And Dante is a very visual poet.
SHAPIRO: It feels almost too obvious to ask about Dante's long journey and the one that you have taken 20 years to complete. But there are some parallels. Was there ever a moment you felt like you were going through hell, that you almost gave up?
BANG: Well, I certainly questioned whether or not to proceed to "Paradiso." But for better or for worse, the pandemic served a purpose, which was, what am I going to do with my time? And I had no idea. I said to myself, there were so many hours in a day. So that was when I opened "Paradiso" and thought, let me just have a go at it. And then I couldn't stop because one, you had to finish - right? - when you were that far in, and also because I wanted to find out what happened. Not having read "Paradiso," everything was a surprise.
SHAPIRO: You've said this trilogy is radical and every bit as relevant today as it was in the 1300s. How so?
BANG: Well, for one thing, the background was very similar. Italy, and particularly Florence, was riven by these different factions, and they hated each other. And when one would come into power, they would exile all the people and even burn their houses. So Dante is speaking about these things throughout the "Inferno." He's speaking to people who have been victimized by it but also the people who were enacting it. So there's this kind of ongoing discussion about the damage that is done. But Dante's really concerned about how we live our lives, and the afterlife is a reflection of that.
SHAPIRO: How do you feel about having reached the end of this long journey?
BANG: I feel relieved that I was able to do it, that it's finished. I wonder what I'll do with my life now. It was the mainstay of my intellectual life. This has filled my days for most of 20 years.
SHAPIRO: Mary Jo Bang, thank you so much for talking with us and congratulations on reaching the end of this epic journey.
BANG: Thank you, Ari. It's been a pleasure to talk to you.
SHAPIRO: She spent the last 20 years translating Dante's "Divine Comedy" - "Inferno," "Purgatorio" and the third book "Paradiso" is out now.
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