STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Now, you heard them mention China and Russia. Sarah Lenti was listening, too. She served on the National Security Council as its director during the George W. Bush administration, and she's with us on this early morning. Good morning.
SARAH LENTI: Good morning.
INSKEEP: What exactly is China's stake in Venezuela?
LENTI: China has a lot to be worried about here. Let's start with the fact that in Venezuela, there's 106 billion in loans that they have granted to Venezuela in exchange for oil. And at this point, with United States basically in charge and essentially probably having entire - the entire access to the Venezuelan oil reserves, they're worried about, are we going to be able to get paid back? So China's already in a trade war with the United States. If the U.S. is in charge, how are their loans going to get paid back? Who's going to be in charge of over half the world's oil reserves?
INSKEEP: As I understand it, China - when you say loans, China has effectively been loaning construction...
LENTI: Yes.
INSKEEP: ...To Venezuela for infrastructure and so forth. Now, what about Russia? Is Russia engaged, too, in Venezuela in that same extent?
LENTI: They are. But the other thing to remember here with Russia - they expressed concern over what the United States was doing. However, we know that Russia has been in a war with Ukraine for four years. First of all, what the U.S. did in a night was kind of embarrassing to what Putin's been trying to do for four years...
INSKEEP: Sure.
LENTI: ...Here in Russia. So, Putin's in a very interesting situation right now. He does not want to anger Trump. He has a relationship with Trump. He needs Trump's support in what he's doing with Ukraine. But what the United States has just done in Venezuela is absolutely a threat to Russia's interests in their - the price of oil for Russia.
INSKEEP: OK. So less direct interest, then, for Russia in Venezuela. Now, I want to think...
LENTI: Yeah.
INSKEEP: ...Through one other thing in the moment we have here. Russia and China criticized this move, said it was a violation of sovereignty. China talks...
LENTI: Right.
INSKEEP: ...About sovereignty all the time, so it's not too surprising. And at the same time, critics of this U.S. move have said this creates an opening for Russia and China to use it as an excuse or say, look, when...
LENTI: Right.
INSKEEP: ...China wants to take out the president of Taiwan, they'll just say, well, look, the United States did the same thing....
LENTI: Absolutely.
INSKEEP: ...To give an example. How do you actually see it? Do you see this as something that Russia or China could take advantage of?
LENTI: Absolutely. Putin for a long time has called Zelenskyy a criminal. And if we just went and got Maduro on narco charges, or so we say, this opens the door for Putin to - you know, is he going to capture Zelenskyy? This puts Zelenskyy, I think, at further risk. We know what China has been trying to do with Taiwan. China is less militant. They very rarely pull the same moves with respect to military intervention. However, the United States just said, this is our Western sphere of influence. Latin America is ours. So what's not to say that Russia and China aren't going to say, Ukraine's mine, Taiwan's mine, you know, and follow suit? So we've just opened up, I believe, a quagmire of Pandora's box on the international scene.
INSKEEP: I think that there are people who have made that comparison on the Chinese side. They've said, well, look, you guys have the Caribbean. We should have the South China Sea...
LENTI: Absolutely.
INSKEEP: ...And all kinds of territories around there.
LENTI: Absolutely.
INSKEEP: Sarah Lenti was National Security Council director under President George W. Bush. She's now with the Carter Center. Thanks for your time this morning.
LENTI: Thank you.
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