Today on Lake Effect, we learn what impact new data centers could have on Wisconsin’s utility landscape and infrastructure. Then, Wisconsin’s version of C-SPAN shut down because of a lack of funding - we look at what that means for transparency in our state’s politics. Plus, we speak with this year’s Milwaukee Youth Poet Laureate.
Guests:
- Tyler Byrnes, senior research associate for the Wisconsin Policy Forum
- Bill Lueders, president of the Wisconsin Freedom of Information Council
- Angela Wang, Milwaukee Youth Poet Laureate
- Tea Krulos, journalist and author
Transcript:
Xcaret Nuñez (Host): From 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR, this is Lake Effect. I'm Xcaret Nuñez. Today, we'll learn what impact new data centers could have on Wisconsin's utility landscape and infrastructure. Then, Wisconsin's version of C-SPAN shut down because of a lack of funding. We'll look at what that means for transparency in our state's politics.
Bill Lueders: In addition to no longer broadcasting sessions of the legislature that it once would have to broadcast, Wisconsin Eye has stopped providing access to its archive of tens of thousands of hours of government hearings.
XN: Plus, we'll speak with this year's Milwaukee Youth Poet Laureate.
Angela Wang: This role is just a way for me to reach out to people who are like me–who arereally quiet, who sometimes don't really know what to say. And it's to show people that you can express your emotions through writing.
XN: All that's coming up on Lake Effect. This is Lake Effect from 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR. I'm Xcaret Nuñez. Thanks for joining us today.
After years of declining energy use in the state, how will Wisconsin power data centers?
XN (Host): Massive data centers are coming to Wisconsin to help power the global boom in artificial intelligence. The data centers will add demand for electricity and water. And this comes after years of declining usage of both in Wisconsin. So, how might that impact Wisconsin's electricity and water infrastructure? To find out, WUWM's Maayan Silver is joined by Tyler Burns. He's a senior research associate for the Wisconsin Policy Forum, which recently released a report on data centers and utilities.
Tyler Burns: So, data centers do use a lot of electricity and quite a bit of water. And, over the course of the last 20 years, we've seen declining demand for electricity drop about 9% in total electricity use and a couple of percent in terms of one-time electricity use. And so,because data centers use so much electricity, there isn't really capacity in the system to supply the electricity that these data centers need because we've been sort of expecting electricity to continue to decline, and so there's been generating capacity. The ability to generate more electricity has sort of come out of the system, as things like coal plants age and become more expensive to operate and more expensive to rehabilitate. And so, you know, the electricity demanded by these centers is going to cause the need for increased generation capacity–so the ability to generate more electricity–both over the course of the entire year, but then also, more importantly, at one specific time. And so, electricity generation tends to sort of peak when everybody's using their air conditioner, everybody's at work, and it's that peak demand that these data centers are going to be more impactful on because they use electricity pretty constantly. So, that demand's always going to be there.
MS: Okay, so that's the electricity picture. What can you tell us about data centers and water?
TB: On the water side, the story's a little bit different. So, statewide, we sell billions of gallons of water. Water utilities — the Madison Water Utility, Milwaukee Water Utility, Milwaukee Water Works, the people you write your check to for your water bill– they sell hundreds of billions of gallons of water each year. And so, these data centers use a lot of water — tens of millions of gallons. And that sounds like a lot, but Racine's a really good example.In the context of Racine, the new Microsoft data center is expected to use about8 million gallons of water a year when it's fully built out. While, in 1997, the Racine Water Works–who provides water to that data center — sold 2.1 billion gallons of water. And so, 2.1 billion gallons versus 8 million — it’s just a different scale. And so, these data centers, they do use a lot of water, but there's a lot of excess capacity in the water supply system in many places in the state. So, there's more slack in that system. Now, that may be different in particular communities. That may be something that people need to look into. But, generally speaking, statewide, there's more capacity in the water generating system to meet the demand of these data centers than there is in the electricity generating system.
MS: What does that mean for the electricity generating system in Wisconsin?
TB: So, that means that we're going to need to add–at least as projected by utilities — they're going to need to add additional capacity to generate electricity. What that means is probably new power plants. And because it's a relatively even, steady load, it's likely going to need to be power plants that operate on an even pace — which means things like gas plants. Because, if you think about solar and wind energy, that sort of tends to fluctuate over time. The amount of energy generated when it's sunny out is more than when it's cloudy or when it's dark. And so, that's what's driving the utilities to look into investing into gas plants. And there's other factors that are driving increased demand — population growth, electrification of cars — that are also sort of contributing to that. But the data centers seem to be the driving factor. In addition to potentially adding generating capacity, it's likely that there's going to need to be some additional transmission — so, power lines and things like that–to get the electricity from where it's generated to these data centers. And, you know, the size and scope of that transmission capacity depends on the location. If there's a center located a long way from a power plant and there's no existing power lines to get there, that's going to be more expensive than one that's located at a site that has had a lot of electricity use in the past. And so, the amount of money that needs to be invested in the transmission, again, varies by community–geographic factors, those sorts of things. But, the concern is that there's going to be all these added costs, and there's concern about who's going to pay for them.
MS: I'm WUWM's Maayan Silver, speaking with Tyler Burns of the Wisconsin Policy Forum. Okay, so,on that note of the economic impact, can you explain who pays for building more power plants and why this matters?
TB: So, in Wisconsin, electrical utilities and water utilities are regulated by the Public Service Commission. And so, what that means is that when your utility needs to change rates, they need to ask for permission from the Public Service Commission — and there's a review process. And the idea is that customers should pay for the electricity or the water that they're using. In response to these very large users, We Energies has come up with a proposal for a different rate for these very large users that's intended to ensure that they're paying for the cost associated with what they're using. And so, the transmission lines, the generated capacity that's associated with this increased demand, the intention of these rates is to make sure that they're paying those costs. In addition, there's a couple bills in the state's legislature that are being considered and recently introduced that will also–you know, the intention of those bills is to make sure that those costs are paid by those users. Now, it's difficult to design policy if state legislatures could do everything they want and get it right every time. We live in a different world, maybe. But the intention of both these rates and these bills is to make sure that the users are paying for those added costs.
MS: Is there good enough data right now? And, if not, who would change that going forward?
TB: You know, there's not very detailed estimates of how much one data center uses in terms of electricity or water. There was some reporting done by someone on individual data centers that are operated by Meta, and that's kind of what I used for some of the estimates in this report. And there does seem to be pretty solid estimates of the aggregate amount of electricity used by these data centers. You know, the Berkeley National Energy Lab produced a report that had both sort of current data and then projections for the future, but that didn't have individual data center reports. And so, it is difficult to find concrete data on both exactly how much electricity these will use over the course of the year or at one time and exactly how much water they'll use. And so, we're dealing with uncertain estimates as part of this conversation.
MS: And why might increasing the water use — as you were talking about how the data centers bring more demand for water utilities — why might increasing that water use actually benefit customers?
TB: So, when you're operating a waterworks, you have to clean the water, you have to pump the water, you have to store the water. You have to have pipes, you have to have people operating the system. A lot of those costs don't change based on the amount of gallons of water you pump. And, especially if you've built your system to service a bunch of large industrial customers which are no longer there, that means that each gallon of water that you sell has to cover more of those fixed costs as sales decline. So, if you sold one million gallons 10 years ago and your costs are about the same, but now you're selling 500,000 gallons, each gallon of water has to cover twice as much of those fixed costs. And so, if there's a large water user that's buying more, now you have more gallons of water to spread those fixed costs over. And so, potentially that will help cover those fixed costs a little bit more. And we've seen water systems where they had industrial customers, and those industrial customers left, and they had to raise rates so high that the users of the water couldn't really afford to pay for the system. That is at least part of the story of what happened in Flint, Michigan. And so, you know, these water systems were built to sell large amounts of water. And if they're selling smaller amounts of water, the customers that are supporting the system have to pay more.
MS: And given that, is there an underlying takeaway that people should come away with based on this report?
I think going forward, it makes sense to be careful about making these long-term investments in the state's electricity grid and the state's sort of business environment. One thing to keep in mind is that, if we'd have made projections 10 years ago about what electricity use is going to be now, we'd have said,“Well, it's going to continue dropping.” And so, you're making decisions based on that. Right now, it looks like in the future, over the next 10 years, demand is going to go up because of these data centers. But, if that demand doesn't materialize and we make all these investments, then there will be bigger questions about who's going to pay for these investments and new generating capacity if that demand doesn't materialize. And so, we always need to be careful about making big projections for the future because that's very difficult. And I think that's something that, as folks are making decisions about this, we need to consider: what happens if that demand doesn't materialize? And that's something we point out in the report. And I think, again, a five-year projection, a 10-year projection, a 15-year projection–that just gets more and more difficult. We don't know what the future's going to look like, and that uncertainty is something I think we should consider.
MS: There's a lot to dig into here, and you've said that you'll be keeping track of these data centers and their impact on Wisconsin going forward. Tyler Burns of the Wisconsin Policy Forum, thank you so much for speaking to us about this.
TB: Yeah, thank you for having me on. And anytime we can help out, we're happy to.
XN (Host): Tyler Burns is a senior research associate for the Wisconsin Policy Forum. He spoke with WUWM's Maayan Silver.
The Wisconsin version of C-SPAN has gone dark due to funding. What can be done?
XN (HOST) : Wisconsin Eye is the state's version of C-SPAN. It's the country's only independent, state capital broadcast network. It allows anyone to take a look at what's happening inside the Capitol. That could be anything, from regular legislative floor sessions to arguments before the Wisconsin Supreme Court. For nearly 20 years, it's been funded by donations. But last month, WisconsinEye went dark. Their website says it was due to a collapse in funding. WUWM is one of many media organizations that relies on Wisconsin Eye to follow what's happening in state government so that we can share that news with you. To break down the situation and its impact, WUWM's Maayan Silver is joined by Bill Lueders, president of the Wisconsin Freedom of Information Council.
MS: Wisconsin Eye says it's quote,“Cultivating productive discussions with state legislators and the governor over long-term solutions.” But, in the meantime, it started a GoFundMe to raise short-term operation funds. It says it needs $250,000. What can you tell us about the latest on the shuttering of Wisconsin Eye?
BL: Well, that's pretty much it, is that there is a proposal on the table that would allow Wisconsin Eye to resume broadcasting. It went dark on Dec.15 because of a funding shortfall that it needed to plug. And so, the function of WisconsinEye, which was sweeping in its recording of up to several different legislative committee things, or Supreme Court hearings and even sessions of the legislature were covered aggressively by Wisconsin Eye — which is Wisconsin's version of C-SPAN. It is just a feed to actual events that take place in the state capitol primarily ,other places in state government. It's something that people have come to rely on. Journalists have come to rely on that. You know, there might be 3 hearings happening all at one time, and you can't be at all three of them. But if Wisconsin Eye was there at the meetings recording it, you could always go back and see what was said. So, there's this fundamentally important function thatWisconsinEye was providing, which has now just been suspended for going on three or four weeks now.
MS:And I want to ask you a little bit about that fundamentally important role that it's been playing. Can you elaborate a little bit on what the laws of Wisconsin Eye would mean for access to public meetings and records and overall transparency in government?
BL: Well, Wisconsin Eye provides ultimate transparency by letting you see the legislative process–by letting you hear the arguments that are made for and against legislation. It's the same thing that happens at an open meeting, but the technology that is brought by an entity like Wisconsin Eye allows it to be used.
MS: And in case people don't know, you can live stream events on Wisconsin Eye, but you can also go back in the past, say, 15, 20 years and see archived events and meetings and hearings. Can you talk about how losing access to both current coverage and the historical archive would create a significant gap in Wisconsin research resources and public access to government?
BL: Yeah, it absolutely already is. I mean, in addition to no longer broadcasting sessions of the legislature that it once would have to broadcast, Wisconsin Eye has stopped providing access to its archive, often tens of thousands of hours of government hearings in past years. It's been in business since 2007, so 18 years. And there's a huge archive of material, which is now not accessible to the public because they're weathering this funding crisis.
MS: And what does this mean for journalism? I mean, you talked about how sometimes you can't catch 3 hearings at once, and you want to record another one that you're missing. I can say that we here at WUWM, being in Milwaukee, we access Wisconsin Eye all the time about important bills or elections commission meetingsor, you know, other important government events.
BL: And people all over the state use it for all kinds of reasons. Legislators use it. I mean, they themselves can't be at every relevant event and so they rely on it. I testified at a Senate committee last week and the room was packed. There wasn't, there was standing room only and, in fact, some people couldn't even get in the room. They had to wait outside in the hallway. And that is because that was the only way people could see that meeting. And so many wanted to see it. If Wisconsin Eye had been in operation, everyone had been able to be in that room. There would have been room for everyone. It wouldn't have been, you know, this big outpouring.
MS: Going back to the financial situation and how this all unfolded, what can you tell us about how Wisconsin Eye is usually funded?
BL: Well, as I understand it, Wisconsin Eye has an annual budget of around $900,000. This is raised through private donations. The organization has been in operation since 2007, so it's made that model work all this time. But in the estimation of John Henkes — who's the CEO and president of WisconsinEye — it's no longer sustainable as a donation-based agency, and it needs to find other ways to finance its operations to continue.
MS: Gotcha. Okay, this is Lake Effect. I'm WUWM's Mayaan Silver, speaking with Bill Lueders of the Wisconsin Information Council. And so,President John Henkes told WPR last month that he had asked the legislature and governor to remove a matching provision so that the legislature would put $10 million in state funding for the network in the most recent state budget. But to receive that money, Wisconsin Eye would need to raise $10 million for its endowment fund by June of 2026, or that money would be given back to the state. What unfolded there?
BL: Well, there is an endowment that was established by the legislature to fund Wisconsin Eye, and it has some $10 million in it. And the issue is:do you have to use it for matching funds in order to get that money out? Or could the rules be relaxed so that money could go to Wisconsin Eye now in its time of need to resume programming at the level that it was operating at? But that is the issue: is there a way to move that money out of there to help Wisconsin Eye? And is there the political will to do that?
MS: And do you know anything about the closed doors discussions that is happening there?
BL:Well, there aren't any closed doors discussions that I'm aware of. There was a very disturbing thing that did happen with regard to this issue of Wisconsin Eye not being there, and that is that the legislative leadership, Republican leadership has begun enforcing a rule against ordinary citizens who come to these public legislative meetings and want to record it with a video or with a handheld recorder even. It’s denying them the ability to do that, citing some rules that it had on its book, but were rarely, if ever, enforced. And so, at a time when the importance of having access to Wisconsin Eye has never been greater, they're making it much, much harder for ordinary citizens to have a record of a proceeding that's taking place in their state capitol and on their dime.
MS: And do you know, have they given a reason for this? Is there any explanation, other than the fact that there's an obscure rule on the books?
BL: That's a good question. I'm not sure how they would respond to that. The Democrats have proposed legislation that would bring back Wisconsin Eye as essentially a legislative-run operation. And that's, you know, something that John Henkes and others have resisted as not being good for Wisconsin Eye — for putting Wisconsin Eye out of business.
MS: Interesting. And so, on that note, nothing like this has ever happened in all the years of Wisconsin Eye's operation — which is nearly 20years, right?
BL: Yeah, it was 2007, so it's been around for 18 years.
MS:And nothing like this has ever happened?
BL: No, it certainly has not. I mean, it's been able to make its funding method work all of this time, but now it's decided that is no longer possible and is trying to find a different way to go into the future.
MS:And is Wisconsin Eye the country's only independent state capital broadcast network?
BL: I believe that's true. It's often called Wisconsin C-SPAN because it functions similarly in that it has independence from the institutions that it covers.
MS: I mean, is there something that people can do about this?
BL:I think there is something that people can do. They can contact their legislators to let them know that they valueWisconsinEye and want this function of Wisconsin governance to continue. And they can support Wisconsin Eye directly. There's a lot that people can do. In fact, the fate of this institution depends on people doing it.
MS: That's even if you don't use it yourself and you've never logged onto it, you may have benefited from it in some way, shape, or form.
BL:And everyone should, I'm assuming there's a time where Wisconsin is at least archivally back in business. People should take a look at what happens at these public meetings. They should see that process. It's different than whatI think a lot of people suspect. A lot of people think people in public office are stupid, they're lazy, they're incompetent. And if you go to these meetings, like I have through my four decades as a reporter, what you see is not that at all. What you see is essentially some pretty smart people engaging a pretty well-functioning deliberative process. And it's more likely to make you supportive of government if you can really see how laws are made. There's an old saying that you should never see sausage being made. I don't agree. I hate that saying. I think it does injustice to public figures. First of all, they do behave better when the cameras are on. And secondly, they are capable of good behavior and their constituents deserve to see that.
MS: Bill Lueders, thanks so much for shedding some light on this issue and we'll keep following what's happening with Wisconsin Eye. Thanks so much.
BL: Yeah, thank you.
XN (HOST): Bill Leders is the president of the Wisconsin Freedom of Information Council, an all-volunteer organization devoted to protecting access to public meetings and records. He spoke with WUWM's Maayan Silver about the sudden end toWisconsinEye.
Need some flexibility for when you listen? You can listen to Lake Effect on demand. Find it as a podcast wherever you like to listen to download and enjoy on the go.
Later in the show, we'll tell you about the Burlington Liars Club, a group that celebrates liars. But first, we'll meet Milwaukee's new youth poet laureate. That's coming up on Lake Effect on 89.7 WUWM.
‘Poetry is powerful’: Meet Milwaukee Youth Poet Laureate Angela Wang
XN (HOST): You're listening to Lake Effect on Milwaukee's NPR. I'm Xcaret Nuñez. Every year, Woodland Pattern selects a Milwaukee Youth Poet Laureate through a competition. Last summer, the local nonprofit crowned Angela Wang with the literary honor. She's a senior at the University School of Milwaukee and wraps up her service this upcoming May. As Youth Poet Laureate, Wang shares her poetry across the city and helps guide other young poets through writing workshops. Wang joins me to talk about what inspires her poems and what she's learned in the year-long role.
Angela, I understand that you brought a poem with you today, and I was wondering if you could start by sharing it with us.
AW: Yeah, of course. So, this poem is called “The Storms That Tie My Family,” and I've read this poem a lot, but I never get tired of it because it's about my grandmother, my mother, and I. And to give a little bit of background, my grandmother grew up in China, and she went to like a school specialized for training teachers. So, she kind of got put in there. She didn't really get to choose what she wanted to be. She wanted to be a surgeon when she grew up. Then, my mom came along and she immigrated to the U.S. to find a better opportunity for me and for herself.And so, this kind of pays tribute to the sacrifices that my grandmother and also my mother have made for me and for my future:
In the large ocean of possibility, we rule. Amidst the vast depths of the basin, we forged our own path to a better future. We are three generations of women, interconnected by the resilience in our blood. We are three generations of women, blazing our own paths. We are three generations of women, each of our fights expanding the next. The grandmother merged lakes to form the ocean, crafting every detail with pride. The mother faced the sea, taking on the storms that attempted to keep her down. And as the daughter, we drew our strength from the waves that our ancestors calmed for us.From the swell of our breasts and the curves of our hips, to our silken black hair billowing in the stormy wind, we have long been kept in the water. We fought to keep our heads above the whirlpool, clawing against the waves that attempted to keep us down. We are workers, bearing the weight of our family on our backs. We are explorers, expanding the horizons for generations to come. We are learners, eager to absorb any wisdom we receive. Our thirst for knowledge created an unwavering ship, navigating the uncharted terrains. We are dreamers. We are believers. We are free.
XN: That was so beautiful, Angela. I was wondering if you could share how this poem speaks to your identity or your life experiences. I know you prefaced it before the poem, but if you could speak a little bit more about it.
AW: Yeah, so I'd say definitely one of my biggest influences for my poems is my family and my culture. I think that as an Asian American, it's often like two sides of my identity. It's like being Asian, but then also being American. Both identities I'm very proud of. But sometimesI really feel like I have to pay tribute to just all the stories that I've been told growing up. I think storytelling is a big part of my family, both the real stories of my grandmother and my mother, but also mythology. I think my most favorite story is about Nüwa which is who like formed the earth in Chinese mythology. And there's a lot of powerful female characters in Chinese mythology that I really draw to. And I feel like my identity really, I kind of try to like emulate some of their characteristics. And so that's definitely what shaped me and then into my poetry as like my voice.
XN: I love how you talk about coming from like a family of storytellers. AndI'mwondering, where does your love for creative writing and poetry stem from?
AW: So, I think growing up, I was a pretty quiet person, and a lot of the times I had so many thoughts in my head, but I just couldn't really seem to find the opportunity to say them. And so, that's when I really turned to writing. I had this like Hello Kitty diary that I would write in every single day. And I'd write about my day and like everything that I saw that day, everything I wanted to say but didn't. And slowly, those writings kind of turned artistic. I started writing stories, and then I found poetry in middle school, and that's when I really started exploring all the different forms of poetry and trying to find my voice through it. I think also then I realized how powerful poetry can be, and that's really how I got into it and how I continue writing it to express my emotions and also use it to connect with other people too.
XN: And Woodland Pattern named you the third Milwaukee Youth Poet Laureate. What does this role mean to you?
AW: This role, for me, is just a way for me to reach out to people who are like me — who are really quiet, who sometimes don't really know what to say at what time. And it's to show people that you can express your emotions not through just speaking, but through writing. Like, you can be seen and heard and understood in like, I guess, a silent language.And like, it's just to show other people who kind of look like me, who might act like me that they're heard and they have a space here to kind of grow and to find their own identities.
XN: I love that. And what are some things you've accomplished in this role or still hope to do before your time ends in May?
AW: This role honestly has taught me a lot, and I'm really excited to keep learning and growing. I think I have an upcoming event where it's like a workshop on anger. I think that like anger and like these strong emotions, I mean, they influence my writing. And I hope that to learn from younger students like this, everyone has something to teach. And I'm here to listen about other people's experiences and maybe how they use poetry to express their emotions and just to try out more types of poetry and maybe trying to expand beyond freeform and trying more, like, maybe haikus and seeing how my writing can fit in all these different places.
XN: Yeah, and I know that it's been a busy year for you as Milwaukee's Youth Poet Laureate. You're also finishing out your senior year and transitioning to college later this year. What are some of the issues you've been grappling with or writing about this past year?
AW: Yeah, I think like these recent months, there's been like increased polarization of like two sides and their different beliefs.And I think with my poetry, I definitely try to explore:what can we kind of connect on? Like, kind of taking from both sides and trying to make them see that we're still all people. Just because we have these different beliefs, that doesn't mean we're enemies with each other. That means that we might have different views, but we're all still people who feel human emotions and have all these experiences that we can connecton. Like, I think I have my own beliefs and I do express them through my writing, but then I also use these to kind of show other people and see: what are your thoughts? What can I learn from you and what can you learn from me? It's more about learning from each other rather than arguing or disagreeing with each other.
XN: Yeah, that is so well said, and really another example of how poetry is an outlet, but also a way to connect with others.What do you hope peopleultimately takeaway from reading and listening to your work?
AW: I want people to know that they matter. I think when I was quiet and I didn't really speak, I thought, “I'm not able to speak because maybe my voice doesn't matter as much. My voice isn't as loud, so maybe my thoughts aren't as valid as someone else's who's louder than me.” And poetry really taught me that your experiences are extremely valid. Like, I used to think I was a boring person, but after I wrote and I shared it with people, they're like,“Wow, I've never experienced this before.” And so, it's just to show people that everything that makes them them is unique. There's nothing that makes them just bland and boring. They should try writing and connecting with people because they'd be surprised how much about themselves that people would love to learn about.
AW: Well, Angela, before we wrap up, I was wondering if you might have any advice for young creatives who want to get started in writing poetry?
So, I think a big struggle that I used to have and I still have with writing is getting started, I think — not because I don't have a lot of ideas, but just that I get so overwhelmed by so many thoughts. It's like, I want to write this, but I'm not sure if it's going to be good enough. And I really recommend just taking multiple sheets of paper and kind of like brain dumping. That's what I like to do.I find that seeing all my thoughts on paper helps me organize them and maybe combine two ideas that are sort of similar and help me start writing. A lot of times people think perfection is good, butI think that creativity comes from chaos. Like all these papers is where strong ideas would form. Another piece of advice is from these scribbles might come a poem that might not be successful. And that's okay. I mean, failures are part of the creative process and they really help move the creative process forward. I never cross out any of my supposed “failed” poems, because I find that when I go back and I look at them, I can extract the things that I thought were really strong and then what might have went wrong. And that really helps me strengthen my next piece of writing and help form new poems.
XN: So let that stream of consciousness flow. Angela, thank you so much for speaking with me today and sharing your impactful poetry with me. I really appreciate it.
AW:Thank you.
XN (HOST): Angela Wang is a senior at the University School of Milwaukee and is this year's Milwaukee Youth Poet Laureate. Milwaukee County High School freshmen, sophomores, and juniors have until March 29 to apply to be the city's next Youth Poet Laureate. You can find more information about that at WUWM.com. After this break, we'll test your skills to see if you can identify a real-world lie, or one made-up by the Burlington Liars Club. That's next on Lake Effecton89.7 WUWM.
The Burlington Liars Club (and game show)
XN (HOST): This is Lake Effect on WUWM. I'm Xcaret Nunez. Lance Armstrong, Elizabeth Holmes, Jay Gatsby — we typically shun liars in all forms, whether they're politicians, financers, or fictional characters. We tell our kids to never lie and expect our friends to be truthful, even when it hurts. But, the Burlington Liars Club is different. Here, lies are celebrated and ranked in an annual contest for who can tell the best lie. Truthfully, Tea Krulos is a contributing writer for Milwaukee Magazine who wrote about the Burlington Liars Club for this month's issue. He joins Lake Effect’s Sam Woods to put WUWM's journalistic integrity to the test and celebrate the liars among us.
SW: Tea, I'm going to start off with a question about the Burlington Liars Club's history, and I'm going to trust you to tell me the truth about it. Yes, there's going to be a lot of lying and truth puns here, so get ready. But what is the club's origin story?
TK: It's a really fun story. So, in 1929, there was a couple of journalists. One was from Burlington. And for New Year's Eve, they decided to play sort of a hoax, and they wrote a fake article that described how every liar in town in Burlington had gathered at the police station, and they had this big contest to determine who was the greatest liar of them all.
SW: And the story itself is a hoax. That didn't happen?
TK: That didn't happen. And I think it was probably a slow news day. It was the holidays. They're like,“let's just do something kind of funny and play a joke on people.” Well, the story started to circulate a lot, and people started inquiring, “How can I join this contest? I'm a great liar. I want to throw my hat in the ring.” And so, the journalists decided that they would start an actual Burlington Liars Club with an annual lying competition. And that's happened every year since.
SW: As a journalist, I wish on a slow news day I could just make things up or just say like, hey, wouldn't this be fun? But unfortunately, we're not looking to start a WUWM Liars Club here. But, I have a question on how this works: who is allowed to submit a lie to the Liars Club? And can you submit on behalf of someone? I'm thinking like a famous athlete or a politician that told a famous lie and say like, "Oh, this should be the best lie.”
TK: Politicians aren't allowed to enter. You can join the club for a dollar. You have to send a dollar, and you'll get a card. And it's open to anyone in the world. So, they've received submissions from tens of thousands over the years from all over the world.
SW: Yeah. So, we have almost 100 years of Liars Club lies now. I believe 1929 was the beginning. Have these lies been memorialized anywhere in Burlington or anywhere other than just, you know, the website for the Liars Club?
TK: Yes, and I love it when a town will embrace a weird part of their history. And Burlington has done that. So, you can go on a self-guided walking tour, and you can find a map on the Burlington Liars Club website. And it leads you to about 26 different buildings downtown. And each building has a plaque, you know, kind of a bronze plaque, your typical historical thing. And these memorialize 26 or so different lies that have won over the years. And it's really fun, because you can guide yourself and read these kind of funny little lies, but it also helps you explore downtown Burlington. One of the stops is a place called the Coffee House. And they expanded and they built, on the second floor, there's a little bar up there called the Liars Club Bar. And you can go up there, it's a cozy little bar. And they have some historic photos of Liars Club members up there. And it's a great place where you can hang out with your friends and try out some lies of your own.
SW: Sure. Curious if you'vebeen to this bar and if you've overheard any particularly good lies?
TK: I went there. The owner was kind enough to show me around. They weren't open at that point, but I got to see it at least.
SW: You mentioned you can gain entry into the Liars Club, but what does entry into the club get you? Just kind of a title of, "I am a credentialed liar," perhaps?
TK: You get a card that you can write your own name in, and then I guess it's the bragging rights of being part of this club.
SW: Sure. So, in writing this article for Milwaukee Magazine, I'm guessing you were able to dive into the treasure trove of lies that have been collected over, again, nearly 100 years. In summation, though, what makes a good Liar's Club lie?
TK:Yeah, and that's an important distinction, because when I first heard about them, you know, I was thinking, like we kind of mentioned, politics. To me, you know, a lie can be a very malicious thing. You know, this is something that can ruin relationships or cause all sorts of huge problems. So, I was like,“Ew, a lying club.” But these lies are a lot more benign, and I would say they're mostly like puns or witty plays on words. And they're meant to be fun, you know, so it's not like who can tell the most vicious, damaging lie. It's more like: who has the best joke that's kind of framed as a lie? So, for example, one of the winners one year was someone who said that it was so cold outside that they had seen an earthworm steal the fur coat off of a caterpillar and then go back into its hole.
SW: It's a good one.
TK: Yeah, it's just kind of a funny little joke, you know?
SW: Yeah, harmless. I imagine an alternate reality where the Burlington Liars Club was dedicated to these vicious, damaging lies. And I don't know if they'd make it 100 years. I think they might ruffle some feathers.In a second, we will play a little game where we try to determine what's a Burlington Liars Club lie, versus a famous lie or a lie told that was maybe malicious and damaging. But before that, I'm curious, Tea, have you ever submitted a lie to the Liars Club?
TK:Not yet, you know. I kind of found out about this and put the article together. But maybe next year.
SW:Now that you know what it takes.
TK:Right, exactly. I've got the inside scoop. I know what it takes. I think I can do it.
SW: All right. Well, as I mentioned, I want to end with a bit of a game. So, I will repeat a few lies — which are either previous winning entries to the Burlington Liars Club or edited versions of famous lies. And together, we'll see if we can tell the difference between those who lie for fun and those who have told famous lies before, often their downfall. The famous lies will contain direct quotes, along with some adaptations, in my best attempt to mimic the Liar's Club style. So, does that make sense? You ready?
TK:Makes sense. Lay it on me.
SW: All right. So the first lie is, "My grandfather's clock is so old that its pendulum's shadow has worn a hole in the back of the clock." Is this a Liar's Club lie or a famous lie?
TK: I will say it sounds very much like a Liar's Club lie. I mean, that's the style.
SW: It is indeed a Liar's Club lie. It is the 1933/34. I couldn't tell if it was 1933 or 1934 or perhaps both.
TK: They're probably counting it as both because it's like New Year's Eve.
SW: Ah, gotcha. All right. Well, it is a lie from almost 100 years ago from Bruno Ceresa. And 25 years into the club's existence, the Liars Club claimed that this was the best lie in those first 25 years. So, great job, Bruno. You have a lasting reputation as a fun liar. Alright, so the second lie we have is. The allegations against me are an unconstitutional witch hunt. The only thing I hunt are unfair advantages, which every contestant does.
TK: I don't think that that's a BurlingtonClub lie. I was going tosay a politician for sure, until you mentioned like the contestant at the end. So now it makes me think it was maybe on a game show, maybe the game show Scandal. I forget which one it was. But I don't think it was a club lie.
SW: It is not a Burlington club lie. It is a famous lie. It is a lie from Lance Armstrong, a bicyclist and former winner of seven Tour de France titles, who was stripped of his accolades after admitting to illegal doping. He initially described the allegations against him as an “unconstitutional witch hunt.” And I get what you mean, though, about the contestant. I originally put bicyclist there, but it's like, Tea will know. That'll tip it off.
TK: And the witch hunt thing, of course, has famously been used as a political — you know, “It'sa witch hunt.”
SW: Yes, but you correctly detected that this is not a Liar's Club lie. This is a real lie. This is a real life lie.You know your lies. You know your lies.
TK:You got to wake up pretty early in the morning to fool me.
SW: Well, I got two more. I'm going to try. I'm going to try to fool you. I got two more. The next one is, “Let me clear this up, Thanos wanted to end half of humanity, but Theranos can save us all. This is what happens when you work to change things .First they think you're crazy, then they fight you, then all of a sudden we save half the world.”
TK:That would be a great Burlington lie, but I think that's a lie from the CEO of Theranos or someone associated.
SW: It is indeed a lie from Elizabeth Holmes, the disgraced founder of Theranos. Probably shouldn't have put that. I couldn't resist the "Thanos" and "Theranos" there. But yes, that was a pretty good tip off there. So, Elizabeth Holmes, the disgraced founder of Theranos, which was a company that claimed to revolutionize blood testing. And after raising $700 million, Holmes was found to be a fraud — but not before claiming it was all a hoax to fight her and paint her as crazy. We love someone who doubles down on the lie right before the fall. It really makes it that much better.
TK: Yes.
SW: Okay, so the last lie I have for you, Tea, is this: "My parents were so poor that they had to bury grandfather naked just so my dad had a suit to wear to the funeral."
TK: I know this one, so I'll say I have the unfair advantage because I was very curious to see what Burlington lie would win this year, and that was the award-winning best lie for 2024.
SW:It is indeed the most recent best lie. It was told by Reagan Bucholz, the club's most recent winner. And with that winning lie, Tea Krulos, I want to thank you for joining me to tell the truth on Lake Effect, and for taking part in this silly little game of lies.
TK: Thanks much, and happy new year.
XN (HOST): Tea Krulosis a contributing writer for Milwaukee Magazine, who wrote about the Burlington Liars Club for this month's issue. He spoke with Lake Effect's Sam Woods. That's Lake Effect for today. I'm Xcaret Nuñez.
Audrey Nowakowski, Joy Powers, and Sam Woods join me in producingLake Effect each week, with help from Graham Thomas. Becky Mortensen is our executive producer, and Emily Files helps edit the show. We also heard from Susan Bence, Maayan Silver, Katherine Kokal, Eddie Morales, Jimmy Gutierrez, and Maria Peralta-Arellano from the WUWM news team this week. Jason Reeve is our studio engineer. Valeria Navarro-Villegas is our digital operations manager. And Trepper Schoepp wrote our theme music. If you missed any ofLake Effect this week, you can find all of our conversations at WUWM.com. And if you'd like to take the show on the go, you can download the Lake Effect podcast wherever you get your podcasts.Lake Effect will be off on Monday for MLK Day. Instead, at noon, you'll hear a special called “Shapes of America,” which looks at one of the oldest musical traditions in the country: shape note singing. Learn about its recent resurgence Monday at noon. Lake Effect will be back with local stories and conversations on Tuesday. Until then, thank you so much for joining us today on listener-supported 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR.
