Today on Lake Effect, we learn how the federal government is changing how nursing students can access federal student loans. We examine the high rate of mental health struggles among doctors. We help you prepare for winter weather emergencies. Plus, we get a behind the scenes look at the plants you don't see at the Mitchell Park Domes.
Guests:
- Hannah Moffenbier, doctoral student in nursing at Marquette University
- Dr. Jesse Ehrenfeld, executive director of the Advancing a Healthier Wisconsin Endowment at the Medical College of Wisconsin
- Katie Rousonelos, public information officer with Wisconsin Emergency Management
- Doris Maki, horticultural services director at Mitchell Park Domes
- Thurner, horticulture supervisor at the Mitchell Park Domes
Audrey Nowakowski (Host): From 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR, this is Lake Effect. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. Today, we'll learn how the federal government is changing how nursing students can access federal student loans. We'll learn why the rate of mental health challenges is so high among physicians.
Jesse Ehrenfeld: Physician mental health is not just a workforce issue. It's a public health imperative. When our caregivers are suffering, our patients suffer too.
AN (Host) Plus, we'll tell you how to stay safe outdoors in the winter and be prepared for emergencies.
Katie Rousonelos: Winter has a variety of hazards, whether that's snowstorms, the freezing rain or extreme cold. Pay attention to the weather forecast so you can plan and prepare before those weather events happen.
AN (HOST): All that's coming up on Lake Effect. This is Lake Effect from 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. Thanks for joining us.
No longer 'professional' degrees? Limits on loans for nursing students may derail grads
Audrey Nowakoswki (Host): When Congress passed its One Big, Beautiful Budget Bill last year, it changed which college degrees are classified as "professional." That's important because it limits the amount of money students can borrow from the federal government to get a graduate or doctoral degree. Nursing was not classified as a professional degree, so borrowing for a graduate degree in nursing will be capped at $100,000.
The Department of Education says this will help bring down program costs, but some health care professionals think this will only worsen the current nursing shortage. WUWM Education Reporter Katherine Kokal is joined by a Marquette University doctoral student and nurse, Hannah Moffenbier, to talk about what the change means for her.
Katherine Kokal: How did you hear about this change, and how did it make you feel about pursuing a nursing career in general?
Hannah Moffenbier: I honestly think that I heard about this change on social media. I follow quite a few, you know, nurses that I look up to — just people whose videos I think are funny — and when I clicked on the link, I really didn't think that it was real. And from there, things didn't necessarily spiral. But, I mean, it's angering and it's scary. Nurses just give so much of themselves — like, mentally, physically, emotionally. And when the support for education is taken away, it feels like another sign that these decisions are going to keep getting made, because people don't fully understand what we carry. And it's not necessarily discouraging for me, because the profession of nursing is very much a part of my identity at this point. Being with patients and supporting families and being trusted in the hardest moments of someone's life — that still feels like the right place for me to be. So, yeah. The policy frustrates me, but the profession is still something that I deeply believe in and honestly, it's part of why I'm pursuing my doctorate — because I want future nurses to have a hard time believing that we had to fight this hard and that it was ever once this exhausting.
KK: Yeah, I get you. Why did you choose to become a nurse? I feel like nursing is one of those professions that people really feel a calling to. Can you share a little bit about how you felt that calling and why you chose this pathway?
HM: Yeah, I'm actually glad to hear you say that, because I feel a little silly calling it a calling sometimes. But, honestly, nursing did feel like something that chose me before I even realized what was happening. Like, underneath that surface level, I was also not safe in the home that I grew up in. Everything looked fine on the outside, but there was a lot that I had to do to learn how to survive, and most of it revolved around staying quiet and small and learning to read a room faster than anyone else in it could. But then, when I turned 17, I started working as a CNA, and those survival instincts were just something completely different — like, they they helped me understand people, and I could tell when someone was scared or hurting or they didn't even have to say anything. Like, it was the first time that I realized that it came from a bad place, but it still produced good things. And I can help people with the terrible things that have been done to me.
KK: I'm really, really sorry that you went through that. At the same time. You saying, like, "growing up in an abusive home" — is it fair to characterize it that way?
HM: Yes it is.
KK: Okay, I don't want to say that if that's not true. But, growing up in abusive homes can force people to, like you said, read the room — like, "Okay, who's going to react in a certain way?" And I never really thought about the connection with being able to do that when you walk into a patient's room, understanding level-setting. Where are we? What are the feelings? What's going into this experience? That's so interesting.
HM: Yeah, and that's where I kind of think that the hang up is, and why it feels like nursing is kind of like tossed around on the playground — like being bullied by different policies, or, like, you know, certain patients, the healthcare system itself sometimes. But, the thing about the work is, like, it's so deeply human. Like, it is the one place where people can just show up and be human and make a real impact on people's lives because of it. So, it's — I don't know. It's just it's so much more than work.
KK: Yeah. I want to ask a little bit about why you chose to pursue a doctorate. Can you explain for people who may not know how many years of schooling that requires and what that opens up — as opposed to an MSN, a Master of Science in Nursing, or a BSN, a Bachelor's of Science in Nursing.
HM: Yeah, absolutely. So, the doctorate in nursing. The reason that I'm doing that is because I feel like eventually I do want to teach. When I was at the bedside, I could quite literally feel the system itself cracking underneath, and it scared me. And I think a lot of people thought I was being dramatic. But, when I was looking ahead, like I graduated with my BSN in 2021. I've been working right in the healthcare system since 2016. And I saw before COVID, and then COVID happened. And it's been like a straight trajectory down and looking ahead at where we're going to be in five or 10 years. Like, there were days when I was working in the ICU or in the emergency department where I wasn't safe — and not just physically. Like, it's kind of status quo for nurses to not be physically safe — whether it's because we're working so hard, or because patients get violent, or, you know, we just are expected to push ourselves past that limit. But, I didn't feel safe because I couldn't keep my patients safe — because I didn't have the resources to. And I started to worry that I was going to lose my license, just because there weren't enough people around and nobody heard me when I said I needed help. I didn't want to just survive the system, or, like, do whatever I could from within it. I wanted the education to actually change it. And that's really why the DNP made sense to me, because something I didn't expect is that it helps me understand the "why" behind the cracks in the system and also gives me the ability to do something about them.
KK: Yeah, I get you. How would this change to the designation of nursing degrees as "professional" or "non-professional" impact your specific ability to borrow the amount of money you need? Are you in a place when you're borrowing more than $100,000 to complete this degree?
HM: I haven't had to up until this point, but I haven't been in full time clinical and that starts in a month, so.
KK: Are you expecting to borrow more money when you go into full-time clinicals?
HM: Yes, I was definitely planning on it, and I'm still kind of working the numbers and waiting to see how things are gonna play out. But, I mean, it makes things harder. Like, I'm already working pretty much around the clock to make ends meet. And, I mean, I can try to borrow more if I absolutely have to, from private sources, but it's hard. Nursing school, it just asks a lot from people — like, emotionally, obviously financially and mentally — like, placing yourself kind of right between life and death and still learning, but having to be confident enough to say that, like, you're not going to kill someone that day or any day. And, I don't know, pulling the funding is just one more barrier when a lot of people in the profession really can't afford to lose it.
KK: And, to put a finer point on that, you're saying you may be borrowing more when your full-time clinical work starts. I want to make it clear for people who are listening that clinical work is not paid, correct?
HM: Correct, yeah. It's kind of like an unpaid internship. Yeah, I don't really know what else to compare it to.
KK: Yeah. In a hospital setting, though? In a clinical setting, right? You're working with patients. It's not doing paperwork, it's being at the bedside, correct?
HM: Yes, absolutely. It's full days requirement, one-on-one either with an MD — which is who I had my first rotation with — or other NPs in specific areas. So, I'll be in neurology and gastroenterology this next semester, and it just kind of keeps working through the body systems like that.
KK: Gotcha. And so, the idea behind needing to borrow more money when you're doing full-time clinicals is that that money may go toward your tuition, but it also will go to things like rent and transportation and food. And that's from my understanding why people are forced to rack up more in student loans because their program is so labor-intensive that it makes it very difficult to work outside of the program. Is that your experience?
HM: Yeah, I would say so. I was hoping to go from working full time, 40 hours a week, to part time — whatever that would look like. And I don't know if that's going to be realistic anymore.
KK: Yeah, I've heard from nurses that although this designation is not technically a value judgment, right? Like, this is not a change to how much this country values nurses, although it certainly feels like it is. The word "professional" in this setting, isn't really a designation of who qualifies as a professional. It's more of a designation for the type of federal student loan borrowing that someone can do, but it doesn't feel that way to the people who are in the profession. How do you feel about that?
HM: I mean, I don't and I do see it as a value judgment. I mean, I understand that, on paper, this is an administrative shift. But when you're at the bedside, it doesn't land that way. Like, it's another sign that the work that nurses do — the physical labor, the emotional weight and like just the sheer responsibility of someone's life — is being treated like something that'll just keep functioning, no matter how much is taken away. And part of why it does hit so hard is because we just lived through a moment where the whole country saw what nurses carry, and it's not like it started during COVID. The world kind of went back to normal, but we didn't get that luxury. And during COVID, we were called "heroes." And so, it's a little bit of whiplash to be five years later and now, I don't know, heroes five years ago, and all of a sudden the education pipeline is getting weakened. And it's not going to be long before the public sees it, and it does feel personal. It's because I know who pays the price when nursing is treated like it's expendable. And honestly, if it meant protecting the patients and the people who trust us without hesitation, I would brand the word "unprofessional" into my forehead if it meant that no nurse ever had to go home and wonder if their patient died because of human anatomy and inevitability, or because they didn't have the resources that they needed to save them.
KK: I want to thank you. We covered a lot here. We went really deep on all of these issues, and I really, really appreciate your time in sharing your thoughts with me today.
HM: Absolutely, and thank you again for giving our voices a place to be heard and taking the time to do this with me.
Audrey Nowakowski (Host): Anna Moffenbeier is a doctoral student in nursing at Marquette University. She spoke with WUWM Education Reporter Ketherine Kokal.
Physicians face mental health issues at higher rates than general population, study finds
Audrey Nowakowski (Host): The rates of depression, anxiety and PTSD are higher among physicians compared to the general population. Unfortunately, this problem is not improving, as at least one physician in the US dies by suicide every day. Despite the proven effectiveness of treating mental health conditions, most physicians don't seek help. So, why does this treatment gap exist, and what barriers are preventing it from closing? Dr. Jesse Ehrenfeld looked into the issue and co-authored a study that shares a few solutions to reduce barriers to mental health care for physicians. Dr. Ehrenfeld joins me to share more, and starts by explaining why mental health challenges are prevalent among physicians and others in the medical field. A note to our listeners: our conversation has mentions of suicide.
Jesse Ehrenfeld: You know, we've got a bunch of problems — stigma. Unfortunately in America today, it's not okay to raise your hand if you have a problem, and that extends to physicians and other healthcare professionals. And the culture of medicine just has not changed today to allow people to ask for help. And unfortunately, we find ourselves — I'm a physician, I see patients couple days a month — working in a system that unfortunately is full of systematic challenges, frustrations, moral injury when I can't get the care that my patients need because the insurance company denied it. All of those things create an environment that unfortunately leads to a lot of physicians having mental health challenges — higher than we would expect based on population statistics.
AN: Obviously, you've been through this process yourself. You've had multiple roles, but you are a physician. You know these problems intimately. So, can you share some of your motivations to actually research this topic and co-author this study and dive into it in an academic way?
JE: Yeah. For me, this is deeply personal. I lost a med school classmate, a resident in one of my training programs and a colleague in one of my practices to suicide, and each of those deaths haunts me. And I think not just about my colleagues that I lost that aren't here and their families. I think about the thousands, hundreds of thousands of patients who will never be cared for by them, and what that means for the health of our state and our nation, because this problem extends everywhere. So, for me, I know there's more that we need to be doing so that it's okay to raise your hand and ask for help when you're at that point, regardless of who you are, and that we make the systems easier for people to work in so they don't get to that point to begin with.
AN: I'm very sorry for all of your losses, and unfortunately, it's something that will continue. I feel like COVID brought this issue of physician mental health into a larger focus, but it hasn't really improved since then, right? So, what are the barriers that deter or can even prevent physicians from seeking help?
JE: So they're logistical barriers, and I feel this, you know. Physicians don't call in sick. I don't want to let down my patients. You know, I'm an anesthesiologist, and if I'm not there, surgery is not happening. And the burden that that creates for families, for patients who took time off, got things organized are expecting to have their procedure done, for my my colleagues who have to step in if I'm not there, people don't call in sick. There's a culture that expects you to show up. I don't want to let people down. And yet, you know, I think we did realize during COVID that you probably shouldn't show up if you're coughing on people — that you should take that day off. But unfortunately, that still just doesn't happen. And so, unfortunately, the time constraints around, well, "How do I actually get help for myself?" You know, it's a little easier now with, you know, telehealth services and things after hours, but most medical services are, you know, nine-to-five try to get an office appointment on a Saturday. Especially with a behavioral health specialist, good luck. There are also a lot of concerns about confidentiality. Most of our health care systems in the state have very well-developed employee assistance programs where there are resources, there may be counseling, there may be professional psychologists or psychiatrists. But, people are afraid to use them. They're afraid that their colleagues are gonna find out, that they will lose confidentiality. And we've seen this. We've seen this play out in Wisconsin. There was a wonderful program that is being sponsored by the Wisconsin Medical Society using a telehealth platform that's very specific for physicians. As soon as they rolled that program out — and I don't know all the details — to their members, they saw immediate uptake. And that uptake, just based on who it was made available to, was from physicians in health systems where there are very robust employee assistance programs. So, we know that there's this unmet demand out there — a lot of logistical barriers, confidentiality constraints, time constraints that are preventing people from getting the help that they need.
AN: And outside of logistics, that I feel like we all struggle with — and then physicians tenfold, because your days are so packed. But there are actually professional consequences, right? If someone seeks out help, if, like you said, the fear of someone knowing that they are going through a mental health struggle could reflect poorly on their professional outlook.
JE: Not only reflect poorly. One could lose their license or not be credentialed to work at a hospital. And, for decades, every time a physician fills out a licensing application here in Wisconsin, anywhere in the country, a very broad, very intrusive, very inappropriate question has been asked: have you ever, at any point in your career received psychiatric, psychological counseling help, or been hospitalized at any point? Now, questions that ask about current impairment, fine. But, I'll tell you what happened to my friend Miriam. You know, we were residents together, and she's incredible — gifted, gifted physician, one of the best. And she graduated and went to get her medical license in another state. She actually checked the box that she had received help. She had gotten counseling in high school. She was an incredibly well adjusted, high-performing physician with no impairment or problems. That held her license up for six months. People know that they're going to have to answer these questions. They know that when they get privileges at a hospital, they have to answer these questions — and so, when they recognize that they need help, they're reluctant to do so. And we're starting to see change. There's been a huge national effort here in Wisconsin and across the country to get health system credentialing forms changed, to get medical license informed changed — and to do it not just for physicians, but for all licensed healthcare professionals. Because it's just not okay to have these intrusive questions.
AN: I want to talk about culture too — for physicians and people who are studying to become doctors, starting in med school through residency to wherever they end up. What is the culture like in healthcare settings when it comes to attitudes about mental health? Because it is a high stress environment, no one doubts that. Everyone knows they're stressed. There's high pressure. There's always the pressure to perform, to get accepted into your next steps. And we can only assume, yes, everyone is stressed. Maybe there's other mental health problems. But, is it just not something you talk about even with your peers?
JE: It's not. You know, we reward stoicism. You know, you're expected to be, "a strong student, a strong resident, a strong physician." I cannot tell you the hundreds of times I've heard those exact words uttered from my colleagues, my faculty, my peers, students who want to be seen as that. They want to be seen as somebody who doesn't have vulnerability, which is not the reality. We all have vulnerability. We all have moments where we need help, where we need to take a day off, where something's happened in our family, and we need to take care of ourselves. But that's not acknowledged, historically, and we're starting to see that culture shift, but it hasn't happened fast enough — and there's a lot more that we need to do.
AN: You can speak just to your personal experience here, but do physicians feel like their mental health needs to be triaged? Like, it's only to be addressed when it gets too bad to ignore?
JE: Unfortunately, we see a lot of physicians who self-prescribe, who try to take care of it on their own, which is never a good idea, who ask a peer — often inappropriately — to help take care of themselves, because they're they're worried about sort of going through the system as it is today because of confidentiality or other kinds of things. And those things obviously need to change, and there are a lot of opportunities to bring on board strategic solutions that can not just reduce stigma, but make it easier for everybody — including physicians — to access behavioral health services.
AN: Yeah. As you mentioned, to put a number on that comment, your report cited that 75% of interns expressed a preference for self-managing mental health conditions — and that this attitude starts off early on in the process of their medical career. So, when we look at the big picture, the institutional challenges because of this, do you think there needs to be longer term changes to, say, the residency system to set up physicians to help reduce these extra stressors that contribute to a decline in mental health?
JE: Yeah. I think there have been some good reforms in our training programs, and there are national standards that require training about recognition of burnout, recognition of needing help. But, just because you go through the training or you click through the online module, doesn't mean that you're actually willing to do that. And I think that there's an important role that physicians who are in practice have to model that behavior, and we're starting to see that. We're starting to see that, certainly in the places that I've worked in, the places I've spoken with around the country. But again, it's not happening fast enough. And unfortunately, every day that goes by that we lose another physician, another nurse, another dentist, another pharmacist to suicide is too many.
AN: And with big institutions, there's also differences of implementation, right? There's state, federal, there's differences of schools. I imagine that's a massive problem, because none of this is going to be like a blanket, consistent thing. No matter where you go to med school, this is the program you're going to get.
JE: Yeah. If you've seen one medical school, one training program, one hospital, you've seen one hospital, one training program, one medical school. And every place has a different approach to this, a different culture, different systems in place. We're starting to see some efforts, and we're funding some of those efforts here in Wisconsin at the Advancing Healthier Wisconsin Endowment to create a shared framework, shared measurement, shared systems. But it hasn't really happened at scale today.
AN: We can talk about Wisconsin, and before we get into this, I'm just going to take a moment to reintroduce you. This is Lake Effect. I'm Audrey Nowakowski, speaking with Dr. Jesse Ehrenfeld of the Medical College of Wisconsin, and we're talking about physician mental health. So, given that things are going to change depending on what school, what hospital, what state you're in, let's focus on Wisconsin. And you mentioned one resource, but what other resources are currently available for physicians? I know there's programs like SOS peer supporters, but that's people who volunteer to be support. But, is there work to be a separate entity that is there for physicians?
JE: Yeah. So, today, Wisconsin is one of three states that does not have a physician health program, a confidential place that folks can go when they need help. 47 states have one. We don't, and we need that. But we don't just need it for physicians. We need it for everybody. There's one state in the nation that does have a universal program for all licensed health care practitioners — that's Ohio. And the Advancing Health Care Wisconsin Endowment made a two-and-a-half million dollar grant to Wisconsin Medical Society to work with all of the health professionals associations around the state and the state to bring online a program that can service everybody. And we're really excited about that. We think that's a really, really important step, because we need someone that — if you're a nurse who's depressed, if you're a physician who's suicidal, if you're a pharmacist who's having a drug problem — you have somewhere confidential that you trust to go, and I think it's one of those important investments that we've made in this space.
AN: Let's talk about wider implications. When it comes to mental health challenges among physicians and everyone who was involved in these healthcare systems, it's truly a public health issue, right, because it trickles down? How does it widely affect everyone they interact with, no matter the level?
JE: Yeah, so physician mental health is not just a workforce issue. It's a public health imperative. When our caregivers are suffering, our patients suffer too. And we can't have a healthy, thriving community, state if we don't have a healthy, thriving workforce to take care of them. When physicians are depressed, quality goes down. When people are having struggles, then you may be absent from work. We see this in any industry, but that has profound implications for the health of our communities when it's the healthcare workers themselves who are struggling. So, the frightening and frustrating part is: despite the effectiveness of cognitive behavioral therapy, of mental health treatments, most physicians don't seek help when they need it, and we've seen that survey after survey after survey. People who know that they're at that point, six-out-of-10 don't get the help that they need.
AN: What do you see as the biggest limitation right now?
JE: So, again, I think it's stigma, it's culture, it's fear of professional consequences and the logistical barriers. We just have not made it easy for people to get the help, even if they're ready to.
AN: How do you think we can change the culture, especially on such a wide scale? It's these institutional norms that we're fighting against.
JE: I think there are definitely things that we can do, and some places have flipped the model. Instead of raising your hand in residency program and saying, "I need some support, I need some help," programs have implemented these opt-out sort of paradigms where they normalize mental health engagement by making it a routine part of training and scheduling everybody for a 20 minute check in. And you can opt out of it, but the default is that you're gonna go talk to somebody about how things are going to do a quick screening to see if there's anything that maybe needs to be addressed. So, I think that's really important. There are definitely opportunities for modeling, you know, from leadership. When a leader shares their own mental health struggle or their challenges or their journey, that breaks the stigma and that builds trust. And I've seen that in many cases, and I think that that's a really important way to change the culture.
AN: So, to localize this, given that things change depending on where people are listening, what would you recommend someone in the Milwaukee area? They're struggling. They need a resource, and they're not comfortable seeking it out in their workplace. Where should they go?
JE: You know, I gotta tell you, the 988 crisis line is an incredible resource, and what's great about that is it's easy to remember, it's universal, and it's a place to connect, right? It's not a particular resource, it's a connection point — and it's pretty good. We've done a lot of work to shore that up across the state of Wisconsin. There's always work to do. There are gaps, but I would tell you, anybody who's needing a starting place, that's a great way to dial in.
AN: Well, Dr. Ehrenfeld, thank you so much for joining me today to talk more about this very important issue. I appreciate your time and sharing your experience.
JE: Thanks for having me.
AN (HOST): Dr. Jesse Ehrenfeld is the executive director of the Advancing a Healthier Wisconsin Endowment at the Medical College of Wisconsin, where he's also a tenured professor of anesthesiology. You can find the study Dr. Ehrenfeld co-authored about reducing barriers to mental health care for physicians and find links to resources at wuwm.com.
Lake Effect is available as a podcast, so you can listen to us whenever you like. Find it wherever you get your podcasts, then subscribe, download and listen on demand. In about 10 minutes, we'll get a behind the scenes look at the Mitchell Park Domes. But first, we'll share some tips on how to stay safe during the cold winter months.
Katie Rousonelos: For sidewalks, you want to walk like penguins, so you kind of have your feet out a little bit wider than your normal stance. Walk a little bit more slowly and make sure you're not doing rapid movements, because then you'll fall and you can cause injuries.
AN (HOST): That's coming up on Lake Effect, on WUWM. You're listening to Lake Effect on Milwaukee's NPR. I'm Audrey Nowakowski.
How to prepare for the worst and stay ready for winter emergencies
We're well into winter, which can bring images of big coats, warm drinks and hunkering down until the spring. Unfortunately, we can't always be insulated from winter weather-related emergencies, as power outages, car breakdowns or icy conditions can easily throw a wrench into even the best laid plans. Katie Rousonelos is a public information officer with Wisconsin Emergency Management. She joins Lake Effect's Sam Woods to share how to prepare for winter emergencies — from unstable ice to carbon monoxide poisoning.
Sam Woods: Can we start by running through a checklist of items to have on hand as cold weather approaches?
Katie Rousonelos: So, as cold weather comes in, it's important to know what those conditions are going to be. When you have cold weather, that can be anything from winter storms that would come through with snow. That could just be extreme cold temperatures coming in. But, some important things to have is to make sure that you have emergency supplies for your home and your car. These are things for your home, such as having flashlights and batteries, having emergency contact information on hand. And then for your car, important things to think about for those cold weather months are having extra blankets, extra hats and gloves in your car — in case, for some reason, you would get stranded in those weather conditions — and having water and non-perishable food with you, like granola bars. Those are things you can just bring with you as you leave your home or work. You don't have to have those stored in your car, because water freezes — and it wouldn't be good to need water, and then you have a bottle of ice on hand. And then other things when cold weather approaches is to check your smoke and carbon monoxide detectors. During the winter months, you're going to be using your furnace or any other heating devices in your home, and it's important to have those safety measures on hand in case something happens.
SW: Okay, so we got extra blankets and snacks for the car and then checking smoke and carbon monoxide alarms. Are there any misconceptions about winter safety that you run into in your work that you'd like to just dispel right now?
KR: Yeah, I mean, some of these things I've heard from older relatives, or just some people in general thinking these common cold weather myths. So one of them you might have heard is: you're going to lose the most body heat through your head. And, while wearing a hat is good to keep your body heated, you can also lose heat from your hands or anywhere else where that body heat can escape. So it's important to have those layers. Another cold weather myth you might hear is: animals with fur don't get cold. That is completely false. The general thinking is: if it's too cold for you, it's too cold for your pets. So, you need to make sure that there's adequate shelter with a heat source and food. And that also goes for farm animals as well. You want to make sure that they have adequate shelter and food and water available to them as well. Another cold weather myth you might have heard is: drinking alcohol will keep you warm. And while you might feel a little bit warmer after you have a glass of wine or some beer, that's the blood rushing to your skin surface, but it also decreases that shivering process — which is helpful for your body to produce heat. Another thing is that alcohol can impair judgment, which can create dangerous situations.
SW: Well, I will say that I am definitely guilty of spreading that rumor, and I will not do that anymore. So, speaking of cold and shivering. How do I know when I'm just "very cold," versus "so cold that I need to get inside ASAP?"
KR: That's a good question. When your body is shivering, if you're doing it for more than 10 or 15 minutes, that's a concern, because your body is losing heat rapidly, and you're getting close to those hypothermia conditions. And hypothermia is when your body has an abnormally low body temperature. So, your body temperature is normally 98.6 degrees. Som when it's really far below that, that is a huge concern. It's most likely to happen at those very cold temperatures, but it also can occur when temperatures are above 40 degrees, when a person becomes cold from rain, snow, sweat or falling into cold water. So, some of those signs that you need to look out for with hypothermia for adults and children, you're looking for: excessive shivering, exhaustion, confusion, your hands are fumbling, your memory is not there, you're slurring your speech and drowsiness. For infants, you're looking at that bright red or cold skin and very low energy. So, some of the things that you can do to help prevent that is simply monitoring rooms where infants might be sleeping for that type of hypothermia. And, when spending time outdoors, you should be dressing in warm and dry layers. If you are wearing cotton, cotton takes a long time to dry, so be careful of wearing that if you have that on your head, if you sweat a lot. And instead, use those synthetic fabrics to wick moisture away from your skin that dry quickly.
SW: So, I want to break the ice by talking about ice safety.
KR: As you might have heard before, no ice is 100% safe. So, there are places you can check, like your bait shops that might be nearby or any local resorts that can tell you about those ice conditions. Generally, if you're walking on ice, you want it at least four inches thick. And, if you see cracks or slushy ice while you're walking out on, say, a lake or a pond, that's a sign that that ice isn't stable and you could potentially fall in.
SW: Gotcha, okay. Watch for cracks and slushy ice. Avoid those. Okay, so we've covered ice and ponds. Do you have any tips for avoiding a slip and fall on sidewalk ice?
KR: Yeah. For sidewalks, you want to walk like a penguin, so you kind of have your feet out a little bit wider than your normal stance. Walk a little bit more slowly and make sure you're not doing rapid movements, because then you'll fall and you can cause injuries. Also, maybe hold your hands out to help hold balance if you're afraid that your balance isn't there when you're walking on the ice — and that can keep you from falling down.
SW: So, in the event that we get a lot of snow at one time. How can I get help or help someone if they are snowed into their home.
KR: The biggest way to help is not to put yourself in danger. If you suspect someone might be in danger being stuck in the snow, call 911. They will be able to provide assistance that way. If you are stuck in the snow, it's important to stay in your vehicle if you are stranded in your vehicle, because there's other vehicles that are using the road. They might not see you and they might accidentally hit you, and so it's very important to stay in your vehicle if you are snowed in.
SW: Now, you handle emergencies from all over the state of Wisconsin, but is there anything in particular that people in Southeast Wisconsin should be aware about?
KR: So, an important thing to note for any emergency is to always take steps to be prepared. That's making a plan, and knowing where your safe spots are in different weather conditions. Who are your emergency contacts, so that you could get a hold of them? And also, where are you going to go? Like, what is your location going to be if you have to pack up and leave, in case your home isn't safe anymore? Those are some important things to think about with the planning process. It's also important to make sure that you have an emergency kit that has the supplies you would need in order to possibly survive three days. And it's also very important to have ways to receive weather alerts — whether that's through your phone, through an NOA weather radio or even TV. It's very important to get those alerts so you know what's going on, and local authorities are able to direct you in what to do when those situations occur.
SW: So, Katie, if you can leave us with one thing to remember about winter emergencies, what would it be?
KR: Yeah, I think the major thing is that winter has a variety of hazards — whether that's snowstorms, the freezing rain or extreme cold — and to pay attention to the weather forecast so you can plan and prepare before those weather events happens.
SW: Well, Katie, thank you so much for joining me on Lake Effect. I appreciate your time.
KR: Thank you for having me, Sam.
Audrey Nowakowski (Host): That was Katie Rousonelos, public information officer with Wisconsin Emergency Management. She spoke with Lake Effect's Sam Woods. We'll take one more break and then learn about the plants that you don't see at the domes. Keep listening to Lake Effect on WUWM.
A behind-the-scenes-look at the Mitchell Park Domes greenhouses
Audrey Nowakowski (Host): This is Lake Effect on 89.7, WUWM. I'm Audrey Nowakowski.
People visit Milwaukee's Mitchell Park Domes throughout the year to see various shows. But how do these shows come to be, and how are the Domes' numerous plants maintained when they're not on display? Lake Effect's Joy Powers headed to the Domes to learn more with two of the experts, horticulture supervisor Amy Thurner and Doris Maki, the horticultural services director. We'll hear from her first.
Doris Maki: We have six growing greenhouses in six horticulturists, so we share their horticultural staff between the conservatory and the greenhouses. They manage and operate all the permanent collections in the conservatory, the rotating exhibits and all the crop management and growing.
Amy Thurner: Welcome to our growing greenhouses.
Joy Powers: Thank you so much.
AT: You're welcome. So, the space we're in right now we call the "head house," because it's the house that's in front of all the other ones. It's where we do most of the dirty work. We're going to do, all the potting and the cutting back and all the major horticultural work. And everything goes into each individual house, and they're all set at different temperatures and have different growing requirements. So, the plants have options for what they need. We divide everything by shows, or its location of where it's going to go — like, either in the show dome or over at Boerner Botanical Gardens. Yeah, we do a lot for them too.
JP: Which one of these are we gonna go into first?
AT: We're gonna go in greenhouse one.
JP: Greenhouse one, well that makes sense. Start with one.
AT: Do you recognize these plants?
JP: I don't know if I do.
AT: Poinsettias. There's maybe six different varieties in here. The colors range from white to pink to red. They vary in size and their growing habit. Most of the chrysanthemums get pinched, and then there's a section in the back that do not get pinched, and they grow straight up. So, they get very tall. To grow those, we just snip off all the side buds so all the energy is going into that one main stalk. Those are pretty special and unique. They don't sell those at florist.
JP: I was about to say, where do these normally go?
AT: Yep, they all go in the show dome.
JP: This is a huge room of them.
AT: It's about 1,200 pots.
JP: Are all of these gonna go in there?
AT: Yeah.
JP: It's funny looking at them in this space, because I've seen them in the show domes. But, looking at them in this space, it just seems like a vast sea of them.
AT: It is a vast sea of them. So this is probably two installments. So, some of the varieties color up sooner than others, so then we have a replacement. So, think of each show almost like two shows. You know, we get a lot of visitors here in Christmas, so it's common that they might get broken and we have to replace them. So that's why we have two installments. Above our heads we have shade cloth, and we have also a blackout cloth. And the blackout cloth we use mostly on the chrysanthemum crop to trigger their flowering in time for the show, because naturally, they wouldn't flower as soon as we make them flower. So, it's a little trick. And we have exhaust fans in the back, and then in the middle there's two little ones that hang and that all helps suck the air across the house for good air circulation. On this side, we have what we call swamp coolers, or cooling pads. It's basically greenhouse air conditioning. So there's a vent behind those that open, and the cool water trickles down, and then we're sucking that across to help these greenhouses not overheat.
DM: Yeah, you can come closer here and you can hear the water, which is operating as a building system for the greenhouse.
JP: These are fascinating.
DM: Just noticing all these tubes and how these are going to go inside the pots. It's our irrigation system. And you can see the poinsettias and how they're all tubed, so we can program the watering schedule.
JP: So, there isn't somebody, you know, walking through here with a little pot?
DM: It's a combination, and some of that is done — but primarily we let the house do the job.
AT: So, we have a control system in here. It's called Argus, and Argus is like the main brain for all the growing greenhouse and controls all the greenhouse systems you — everything from both types of shade to the irrigation to the floor heat.
DM: So, yes, the floors can be heated, so we get a little bit more warmth.
AT: Argus is supposed to take the place of a person physically opening the vents and physically pulling the shade and obviously the watering can't always be done automatically. But, for the most part, we we aim to do it that way, just because it's more consistent and easy. And we have fertilizer. So, we have all these tricks,
JP: I'm sure, with a group like this, it's nice to have kind of the watering system, because you can kind of set it, forget it, maybe check on the plants just to make sure there aren't a couple that are suffering. But, with some of your other less common, rare plant, you're probably doing more of the kind of hands.
AT: That's exactly, pretty much how it works.
DM: But, you see a control panel outside of each house, which is the Graham House. We'll just give you like a little peek here of all the controls.
JP: Oh yeah. Do you guys do this?
AT: So this is if we want to tell Argus to take a break and now we want to take control and manually operate things, that's what the little dials are for. So, we may step in there if it's raining, and the weather sensor above didn't sense the storm coming in fast enough. We can do those types of things, but it's rare. We pretty much let Argus roll.
JP: It's like the weather report. Usually it's pretty close, but then sometimes you're like, "It's not raining, that's not accurate."
DM: Yeah, yeah.
AT: Let's see, so there's six growing greenhouses, and one through five are the same. Six is a little smaller, but.
DM: What you saw in Greenhouse 1 is the holiday show crop. In these houses, this might be fall show. So, basically, the work that is being done here is two exhibits ahead.
JP: So, what we're looking at kind of through the door here, this is going to be probably fall show?
AT: Yeah, so next we will actually be starting spring. Like, we're always on the roll. It never ends. So, yeah, this is mostly chrysanthemums and various annuals. No flowers yet, but soon.
JP: Now, these domes all seem pretty humid, but I'm thinking that every plant wants humidity. Do you have greenhouses where you try to keep it more arid, like the desert?
AT: Not in the greenhouse facility side of the operation, but over on the dome side, we have a very small little room for the orchid collection. We have a very strong mist system in there, and orchids love to be misted, so. Over where we have this little orchid collection, there's a very small area where we're growing future collections for the desert dome.
JP: Yeah, like cacti and things?
AT: The "transition dome," we call it.
JP: These plants do take, of course, a while. As you said, you're starting some of your spring stuff already. But, I grow a lot of cactuses at home. As I think about it, I go, "Oh, they take a long time."
AT: Yes, it's common that plants are in there. We were just talking about this a few hours ago. We had a meeting about the desert dome, and there's things in there that are — a euphorbia right now is a bit as big as you and I. And it's in a pot, and we're we're thinking, "Okay, we're ready to put you in now." There's not many that big, but it takes a while, so we have to have a designated space to get everything big enough. Otherwise the plants go in, and they're like so small people can't even see them. So it takes time. But, without the transition house, the dome side would be a lot harder to maintain that collection. That's where we also have the tropical dome. It's got some space designated in there.
DM: There's another one we call the flex house, one more space for growing outside.
JP: It's a really big complex. I think one of the things people would be surprised by is just like, how big it is — just how many plants there are back here. It's an intense amount of space and an intense amount of plants.
AT: And only two people working back here.
DM: Only two greenhouse growers,
JP: Only two greenhouse growers?
DM: Yes.
JP: Oh, my God.
AT: We could have 10.
Audrey Nowakowski (Host): Doris Maki is the horticultural services director, and Amy Thurner is the horticulture supervisor at the Mitchell Park Domes. They both spoke with Lake Effect's Joy powers in 2023. The Domes' train show "Modern Wonders" opened this past weekend. You can check it out in the show dome through March. And that wraps up today's show. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. If you've missed any of Lake Effect, you can find all of our conversations at WUWM.com. If you'd like to take us on the go, simply download the Lake Effect podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Tomorrow on Lake Effect, we'll visit some of Milwaukee's crafting clubs and learn about the community they create. Thank you so much for joining us today right here on listener-supported 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR.
