Thursday 6/18/26: 55 years of Juneteenth in Milwaukee, Underground Railroad in Wisconsin, Bubbler Talk

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Audrey Nowakowski: From 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR, this is Lake Effect. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. Today we'll share the history of Juneteenth and look at how Milwaukee celebrates.

Robert Baker: I think Milwaukee's Juneteenth Day is especially important and magical. If you go to the Juneteenth Wikipedia page, a picture of Milwaukee would be there because our Juneteenth Day is so massive.

Audrey Nowakowski: Then we'll learn about the Underground Railroad's connections in Wisconsin and what it says about our history.

Robert Baker: The secrecy is something that I think Wisconsinites need to be really proud of. It highlights their ability to resist federal agents who are coming into their cities and snatching people up. And so it shows an incredible amount of bravery, and I think it's a tradition that still exists here in Wisconsin in many ways.

Audrey Nowakowski: Plus, we're celebrating 10 years of BubblerTtalk by listening back to old episodes. Today features our story about Milwaukee's public nanatorium. All that's coming up on Lake Effect.

This is Lake Effect from 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. Thanks for joining us. Juneteenth is a holiday commemorating the day in 1865 that enslaved black Americans in Galveston, Texas, were told they had been freed. The announcement came two years after President Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, a document that freed slaves in all states. Juneteenth became a federal holiday in 2021 and an official City of Milwaukee holiday in 2022. But Milwaukee has been celebrating long, long before then. In fact, we have one of the longest running Juneteenth celebrations in the country, and this year marks 55 years. WUWM's race and ethnicity reporter, Teran Powell, is joined by Dr. Robert Baker to talk about the history of Juneteenth.

Teran Powell: What do you know about how those early celebrations looked?

Robert Baker: Yeah, it was a celebration of food, singing and joy. I mean, obviously, a year after slavery, people weren't rolling up in their Harley Davidsons or on their motorcycles or coming out in super fancy clothes, but it was at a time of remembrance and hope. And so that first Juneteenth day, which is just “June” and “19th,” smashed together, that first Juneteenth day kicked off a cultural practice. That started in the South and really pushed throughout the South, throughout the North after the Great Migration. In 1971 in Milwaukee, we have our first Juneteenth celebration. So I could imagine it was a time of hope and love.

Teran Powell: And so you mentioned just that those celebrations traveling from the South to the North and Milwaukee has been one of the cities that I believe has one of the longest Juneteenth celebrations. What do you think that says about Milwaukee that this festival has been able to succeed this long?

Robert Baker: Yeah, I mean, the beautiful thing about Milwaukee is that we have a lot of love, hope, and pride, and connection to our Black culture. And even though African-Americans didn't start moving to Milwaukee until the late 50s, what you see by 1970 is an explosion of our Black community. And so as African-Americans were coming north, they settled. This was one of the best places in the country for Blacks to be. And so I think it was a celebration of hope, freedom, but also about Black success. So I think we still have a lot of successful, freedom-loving black people. And we're gonna show up on King Drive until we can't.

Teran Powell: Absolutely. So Juneteenth finally became a federally recognized holiday in 2021. Joe Biden signed the Juneteenth National Independence Day Act into law. And you know, that was thanks to some Black women like Opal Lee and Lula Briggs Galloway and other supporters who just really advocated for years for that to become a reality. What do you think is the significance of this federal acknowledgement?

Robert Baker: Yeah, I mean, the last federal holiday was in 1993, and it was Martin Luther King Day. And so we fast forward over 30 years, and we have Juneteenth Day. And I think it's about a statement by the federal government that African Americans are just now finally getting acknowledged. Their history is just finally getting acknowledged, and while we're grateful to President Biden for passing this holiday, it shows that Black people in this country have to struggle to get acknowledged. It shouldn't have taken that long.

Teran Powell: And so why do you think it took until 2021 for Juneteenth to be federally recognized?

Robert Baker: I think it took so long for Juneteenth to be recognized because even though a lot of our population has moved on and has acknowledged that racism and racial oppression is something that still exists today, there are many leaders who want to hide from our past. And even today, we're seeing a lot of people sort of put down Black history and some of the critical thought that's connected to it. And so I think there's a resistance to acknowledge that African-Americans have a different history in the United States. On July 4th, 1776, many of us were still in bondage. At the end of slavery, four million black people are still enslaved. And so it was a resistance and the slow-moving nature of accepting our story. But you know, Black people, we turned up. And so we know what happened in 2021.

Teran Powell: Absolutely. And that's actually what my next question was. Those events of 2020, with George Floyd being killed, and the country having what some called a racial reckoning, do you think that helped push that effort for federal acknowledgement?

Robert Baker: Yeah, I think that if there had not been the resurgence of the Black Lives Matter moment and movement that took place after the death of George Floyd, I don't think President Biden would have set the federal holiday. And you know, Frederick Douglass, our great ancestor, said that there is no progress without struggle. And so I think every time Black people and our allies and people who are concerned about racism and oppression step up and use our voice in unison, that's when we get stuff done.

Teran Powell: So I'm really like harping on this federal acknowledgement. You know, as with any major holiday, you have companies, for example, that would try to capitalize off it, right? You have the sales, the slogans, social media messaging. Sometimes that really just looks like lip service to some people. Considering that, do you worry that the true meaning of the holiday might be lost because of things like that?

Robert Baker: Yes, I think that we're in this phase in which it's becoming apparent that corporate America is grabbing on to Juneteenth and sort of, what some people might say, commodifying it. And I do think we have a danger with any holiday with just using it as a time to sell goods or tell surface-level stories. So I do that we need to be concerned about that, but I do also believe it's a time for Black people to get in where we fit in. Over the last two years, I've been approached by corporate institutions and nonprofits that had never considered talking about Juneteenth, and they brought me in to talk to their staffs. And I know that I'm not the only historian doing that. I know there are a lot of leaders that are sort of being more thoughtful. And so, yeah, this is America. We like to sell products, but I do believe that more good will come from this than anything that's bad.

Teran Powell: Okay, okay. Well that's good to hear. If we have those companies like you're talking about and just people in general who are serious about acknowledging the day, you know, beyond a day off, how can they truly share that they care about this holiday, or care that the holiday commemorates Black people's liberation?

Robert Baker: Yeah. I mean, I believe that there will be a lot of people who would continually just get off, you know, and do their thing and not pay one second of attention to Juneteenth Day. But, you know, if you're an ally or a parent or someone that's concerned about the state of the country or the world, I really encourage you to check out the great books that are online about Juneteenth. There's great YouTube videos, important Wikipedia pages. And I would ask that you spend at least a moment reflecting with your children or your loved ones and tell a story about how a group of people who had been in bondage really turned up for the entire country. After slavery, former enslaved people started memorial days, they started private schools, they started public schools, they built roads and railroads. And so much of our history is taught through the lens that Black people have these pathologies or problems. But when we look get those formerly enslaved people, they showed up with joy and love. And so I feel like that's something that all of us need to do and need to reflect on.

Teran Powell: So I guess my final question: we talked about this nation really being, there being some resistance to acknowledging that Black folks have a different history in this country. There was the slow-moving nature to acknowledge Juneteenth as this holiday. What would appropriate recognition from America for Juneteenth look like to you?

Robert Baker: Yeah, I think the appropriate sort of recognition of Juneteenth would start with federal agencies and local governments sort of investing in the holiday, beyond just sort of slogans or putting up flags, but investing it in the same way we do July 4th, having park resources, neighborhood resources that allow people, Black people especially, to celebrate their connection to this American story. I feel like because there's been this slow recognition, many of us to this day don't feel like Americans fully. And so if black people are gonna be at the center of the conversation and not at the margins, we need to invest. And I feel there are states like California that are looking deeply at reparations and things like that. And I'm not sure where that conversation is gonna go, but I do know that there's a lot of heavy baggage that all of us feel because of slavery. And the more we look at it straight in the face and acknowledge it, the better our country will be.

Teran Powell: I want to leave space for you to share any final thoughts that you have.

Robert Baker: Yeah, I appreciate you putting a spotlight on Juneteenth. I think Milwaukee's Juneteenth day is especially important and magical. If you go to the Juneteenth Wikipedia page, a picture of Milwaukee will be there, because our Juneteente is so massive. And so I appreciate that. I appreciate anyone paying attention to Black history because it's American history. And we can never forget the path that this country has taken to get here today.

Teran Powell: Well, Dr. Baker, thank you so much for having this conversation with me. I really appreciate it.

Robert Baker: Appreciate it. Thank you.

Music: March down freedom highway...

Audrey Nowakowski: Dr. Robert Baker is the Director of Undergraduate Studies in the Department of African and African Diaspora Studies at UW-Milwaukee. He spoke with WUWM's Race and Ethnicity Reporter, Teran Powell, in 2023, and we'll hear from him again later in the show.

Music: Marchin' each and every day...

Audrey Nowakowski: Milwaukee's Juneteenth parade will step off at 9 a.m. tomorrow. That will be followed by a day of celebrating culture, music and food on King Drive. WUWM's Jimmy Gutierrez captured the sounds of last year's Juneteenth celebration.

101.7 The Truth Announcer: If you're streaming or watching us live, we're live on YouTube, on the Truth website. We're on X. We're everywhere. We are worldwide, y'all. Make sure you stop by one of the largest Juneteenth celebrations in the world, right here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin...

Milwaukee Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: Yeah, okay, one more time. Okay, me too, one time. Thank you!

Juneteenth Celebration Emcee: Welcome to Claiborne Benson, who will be giving our libations

Claiborne Benson: Greetings, brothers and sisters. I am honored to be here. There are many ancestors. Starting from 1972 all the way to now, we have been celebrating Juneteenth.

Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: What's up with you, man.

Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: What's up, baby?

Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: Hey, how you doing?

Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: What's going on with you?

Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: I'm all right. What's happening with your man?

Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: Man, slow motion. Slow motion. Steady slow.

Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: What's going on with you, baby?

Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: What's up with you, man? How y'all doing?

Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: We're doing good, you?

Juneteenth Celebration Attendee: Alright, alright, you know.

40+ Double Dutch Club Singing: Pretty girls are educated! Pretty girls are educated!

Artist: My painting is really inspired by romance, light-hearted romance in the spirit of Juneteenth. I was just inspired by how we have the freedom to enjoy light-hearted romance, in honor of my African-American ancestors who were robbed of so many of life's simple pleasures. So I want this painting to capture the sweetness of life.

Vendor: Shout out to the Running Rebels. We got dollar water bottles, $15 Juneteenth Day special t-shirts, catfish, chicken wings, anything you can think of. Shout out to Juneteenth, happy Juneteenth!

Vendor: That right there is our THC-A-infused slushie. $20, but it's fire. It's fire. I ain't gonna cap. You ain't going to make it through Juneteenth drinking the whole thing either.

Vendor: Did you want to order something?

Festival Attendee Ordering Food: Two rib dinners.

Vendor: Two rib dinners. What do you want for the side?

Festival Attendee Ordering Food: Green beans and mac and cheese.

Vendor: It's green beans and mac n cheese. And you want that on both of them?

Festival Attendee Ordering Food: Yeah. I just don't want you to run out. My husband's like, “you better bring me something.”

Vendor: Okay, we won't run out!

Emcee on Megaphone: Happy Freedom Day, y'all! Happy Freedom Day!

Audrey Nowakowski: WUWM will be at tomorrow's Juneteenth celebration, so stop on by and say hello.

Did you know there was a restaurant in Milwaukee where you could dine with dolphins? You heard me right, dining with dolphins. We'll tell you all about it in about 20 minutes.

But first, we'll explore Wisconsin's history with the Underground Railroad. That's coming up next on Lake Effect on 89.7 WUWM. You're listening to Lake Effect on Milwaukee's NPR. I'm Audrey Nowakowski.

The Underground Railroad was a network of people, places, and secret routes that helped enslaved people escape to freedom. Although stories about the railroad often focus on former slave states, the network stretched throughout the U.S. and Canada, including here in Wisconsin. A documentary from Milwaukee PBS explores this little-known history. And some of the local spaces that shed light on how the Underground Railroad operated here. The documentary, Wisconsin's Underground Railroad, was produced by Brian Ewig. He joins Lake Effect’s Joy Powers, along with one of the experts featured in the film, Dr. Robert Baker. Ewig begins by explaining what inspired this documentary.

Brian Ewig: How this project started was I was working on a different project, and I was approached, and someone came up to me and said there's this church that's down in Racine. They're finding some interesting letters and writings from their original members and some original stuff that you should take a look at. This church is First Presbyterian Church down in Racine, founded in 1843. So we're talking before Wisconsin's even a state. They have documents from their original pastor kind of speaking out against slavery. They have original resolutions, as they're trying to become a church, talking about their anti-slavery beliefs and their anti slavery practices. And they also found some artifacts in the basement, and I'm going to leave that as a little teaser for the documentary. All of those things, combined with the abolitionist activity going on in the Racine area, got me thinking, well, “I think there's a story here.” And I think at that point it became reaching out to the institutions and finding historians to kind of fill in some of these gaps about asking why, you know, why these things are happening at that time. And that's where you find people like Claiborne Benson at Wisconsin Black Historical Society. You find people like “Biko” Baker. And those historians are very important to the project, to fill in, add some context to the story, fill in those gaps, because history is... It’s tough to put context to history sometimes. It's tough not to view history through a lens of today. And so that's why these historians are very important to the project.

Robert Baker: Context is part of the historian's job, but the documentarian's job is to bring the story to life. And Brian did an amazing job. I think, as someone who uses documentaries to teach Gen Zers, they have such short attention spans. And so in 30 minutes, he did an incredible job of bringing our city and state to light. So hopefully, he gets some awards for this one.

Brian Ewig: I really tried to, in this program, every two, three, four minutes, kind of change the story up and kind of move us somewhere else. And that's part of trying to create this story in an engaging way so that people are actually going to pay attention.

Joy Powers: Sure. Now, looking at this history, one of the questions that has often come up for me as I think about the Underground Railroad, I do have an idea of how this system connected to slave states, especially in the kind of more nearby states. But when you come to a state like Wisconsin, what did that system look like? People must have traveled quite a bit in order to get here.

Robert Baker: Yeah, I mean, it was different for everyone. And so the Underground Railroad is made up of stations, conductors, and agents. And this isn't like TikTok or social media where we all know each other. This is like an informal network where people may have never met. In the film, they tell the story of Caroline Quarles, who comes from Missouri. And there's a lot of relationships between Wisconsin and Missouri when you look at black history. And so Brian did an excellent job of sourcing some of the family members of Caroline Quarles, who do an excellent job of telling the story. Do you want to chat a little bit about that?

Brian Ewig: Yeah, I'd love to. So I think one of the things that really personalizes this documentary and doesn't just make it historians telling the story and make it a little dry is the story of Kimberly Simmons. Kimberly Simmons is the great-great-great-granddaughter of Caroline Quarles – Caroline Quarrles being the first freedom-seeker documented to travel through the state of Wisconsin on her way to Canada. So what you have in this documentary, she's out in Detroit doing a lot of work with her Detroit River Project. And they have a lot a history with the Underground Railroad over there as well, being right across the river from Canada. And so she was kind enough to come back to Milwaukee. And so what this documentary sets up is, on July 4th, 2025, Kimberly Simmons comes to Alice's Garden – Alice's Garden being the former land of Deacon Samuel Brown. And she tells her story of Caroline Quarles, who on July 4th of 1843 escapes bondage in St. Louis and makes her way up through Wisconsin, eventually to Canada, but while in Wisconsin seeks refuge at Deacon Samuel Brown's farm for a period of time. So, you have this incredible living history right in front of you, you can see the decisions that Caroline Quarles made a hundred and twenty, thirty years ago living in history today. And you know, as a father, I think that's the ultimate goal, right? It’s to have future generations, leave something to them, whether that be decisions you made, whether that be monetary, or whatever that is. To have three, four generations of your family later speaking about the decisions you've made is pretty incredible.

Robert Baker: And for those that don't know, the Brown Farm is Johnson Park, 17th and Fond du Lac. And so my entire childhood, I was in that area and did not know the incredible history that was there. And so when I watched the film, I got goosebumps. As he was talking about it, Igot goosebumps. And the great thing is, I say to my students, history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. And so, when you have almost 150 years later or a little bit more, the ancestors and the descendant hanging out in the same spot, spiritually, it’s incredible. And so it's an incredible film.

Joy Powers: So when Caroline Quarles decided to flee, was she effectively, as part of the Underground Railroad, going from home to home, from church to church? What would that have looked like? What would the journey have looked like?

Robert Baker: Caroline Quarles, if you wanna tell the story of how she got here, it's pretty cool. And how she left is pretty cool. But it's not a formalized thing. These are people who are doing this because, in most cases, God is pushing them to be better. And Frederick Douglass, the great African American, at one time chastised people in the Underground Railroad because they're talking a little bit too much about it and he feels they're putting people at risk.

Brian Ewig: Yeah, and that's an important thing you bring up, too. A lot of these church documents, a lot of the documentation we see in the film, we do not see people talking about this until after the dust of the Civil War has ended. I mean, 20, or you're talking about now 30 years later, people are going, “Oh yeah.” You know, A.P. Dutton, who was known to have taken Joshua Glover via the Great Lakes up to Canada, he writes in the 1890s, “Oh, yeah, we took at least 100 people.” You know, all these years later you're seeing people be a little more comfortable talking about it. Of course, at the time the Fugitive Slave Act makes it illegal to harbor, to help in any way. So I think that puts the fear in people, and they don't talk about it

Joy Powers: It also seems like talking about it would have not just risked themselves, but also anyone who they had helped.

Robert Baker: Absolutely. I mean, I think the fine was $1,000 if you helped a formerly incarcerated – I mean, an enslaved person. $1,000 today is a lot of money. The slaves were more at risk. You know, they couldn't defend themselves in court. They couldn't go to trial. And so this secrecy is something that I think Wisconsinites need to be really proud of. It highlights their ability to resist federal agents who are coming into their cities and snatching people up. And so it shows an incredible amount of bravery, and I think it's a tradition that still exists here in Wisconsin in many ways.

Joy Powers: Yeah. Now you mentioned Joshua Glover. This is a very well-known story, not just here in Milwaukee, but especially at the time throughout the U.S. This really made headlines. Can you tell us a bit about who Joshua Gloever was and why his story made such big headlines?

Brian Ewig: Sure. I mean, I think, historically, the Joshua Glover case really gets the ball rolling for a number of things. Joshua Glover was a freedom-seeker who left St. Louis and headed up to Racine, specifically. He actually spent two years working in Racine, working in a sawmill, just living his life. Well, once the Fugitive Slave Act and his owners decided to come and get him, they take him from Racine, bring him up to jail in Milwaukee, up at Cathedral Square, which the old jail was. And you have a situation then where it starts to become pretty public. You get these figures like Sherman Booth, thank you, who join in the protest, literally gets on his horse and starts riding around the streets of the jail, gathering people to come. At least a hundred people came up from Racine via boat to come and take part in these protests. Eventually, they end up breaking down the door of the jail, bringing Joshua Glover out, getting him to safety, taking him first to Waukesha, then to Burlington, then to Racine. Then, via A.P. Dutton in the mercantile section of the Underground Railroad, they take him around Michigan to Canada. This sparks a number of debates, court cases. And keep in mind, less than two weeks after this happens, you have people going up to Ripon, Wisconsin and founding the Republican Party. Of course, the Republican Party's base is the opposition of slavery. So that gets the ball rolling. Then you have Abe Lincoln, then you have the Civil War, then he preserves the union. And so, this really gets the ball rolling on that level. But at the same time, after this case, there's a series of cases with Booth.

Robert Baker: Yeah, I mean, well there's a Supreme Court case, Abelman versus Booth, 1859. And it basically sets the precedent that states: if they don't follow the federal law, they're in trouble. And so, this is the spark of something really huge. This is the beginning, not the beginning, but it's like the heightened resistance prior to the Civil War. And it's just like George Floyd. If you think about it, like, we saw George Floyd get killed in Minneapolis, and from that time, things change, organizations start, people are amplified and elevated, and Wisconsin was at the middle of that. When you drive on the East Side of Milwaukee, when you see Booth or Glover or Brown, this is our anti-slavery history right in front of us.

Joy Powers: As someone who used to live near Cathedral Square, I became very familiar with that historical marker. You pass so many sites of this history here in the city, and luckily, we do occasionally have a plaque. That is not always the case. What are some of the remaining sites that we have here, both in Milwaukee, but also in the surrounding area that were connected to this history?

Brian Ewig: Yeah, so it's interesting. Racine County is doing quite a bit to preserve their history. They have what they call the Heritage Trail and they have 27 sites throughout Racine and Racine County dedicated to the abolitionists where some of these things happened. You know, they're preserving that history really well down there. As far as Milwaukee goes, of course, we have Cathedral Square. We have Deacon Samuel Brown's farm, which are very important places, too.

Robert Baker: And then we have the Milton House, Goodrich in Milton. And then, yeah, I think the Racine stuff is really exciting because there's these Presbyterian churches across the state. And sometimes in history, we try to pull the threads of history. And so my bet is the Racine case is gonna open up other documents in other places because people are gonna realize what they have. And so this is an incredible history. I'm sure there's more to learn. And Brian's done a great job of opening the door for students who wanna go deeper.

Brian Ewig: Yeah, and I think, you mentioned the churches earlier, I think that's a pretty important part of all of this. You know, the religious aspect, and you have these people who are coming here from other countries as well. According to the census, in the 1850s, 55% of the Milwaukee residents were foreign born. So you have a lot of immigrants coming here. Why are they coming here? For religious freedom, for personal freedom. And then you have these people from New England area coming with very religious background, very devout people. And so I think all of those things really ignited the citizens of Wisconsin and Milwaukee, and made it different than a lot of other places.

Joy Powers: We're talking a bit about sites. We spoke a bit about some of the people, some of the descendants of people who are in the underground railroad. How does this history live on in Milwaukee?

Robert Baker: We live in a very ideological time, and I have students, and I say, how many of you are English, or your family's owned slaves? And there’s like, I don't know, there's sort of the meme of white angst tied to slavery, but it's like, yo, your family, ancestors, weren't even a part of this. They resisted this. They fought back. They were anti-racist. They were anti-slavery. And I think this is an opportunity for us to reposition ourselves as a state that really fought back. And I think that people are looking for histories like this because these stories aren't often told. When we think about the Underground Railroad, sometimes it's only people in the South that we're thinking about, but Wisconsin has a great tradition of resisting and hopefully people can look to their ancestors.

Joy Powers: Well, thank you both so much for joining us here on Lake Effect and sharing your work.

Brian Ewig: Thank you for having us. Thank you.

Audrey Nowakowski: Brian Ewig is the producer of the Milwaukee PBS documentary, Wisconsin's Underground Railroad. Dr. Robert Baker was featured in the documentary and is the Director of Undergraduate Studies in the Department of African and African Diaspora Studies at UW-Milwaukee. Wisconsin's Underground Railroad is available now on Milwaukee PBS and YouTube.

Need some flexibility for when you listen? You can listen to Lake Effect on demand. Find it as a podcast, wherever you like to listen, to download and hear us on the go. We'll take one last break, and when we return, our environmental reporter joins us to look back on her Bubber Talk story about Milwaukee's public nanatorium, a place where you could actually dine with dolphins. Keep listening to Lake Effect on 89.7 WUWM.

Michelle Maternowski: This is Lake Effect, on 89.7. WUWM is celebrating 10 years of Bubbler Talk, a full decade of putting your curiosity front and center. What have you always wanted to know about the Milwaukee area’s people, places, or culture? Over the years, we've received thousands of inquiries to that prompt. And as a result, we reported out hundreds of deep dives into Milwaukee history and culture.

I'm Michelle Maternowski, WUWM's audience innovation manager. I helped get Bubbler Talk off the ground in 2016, helping connect our journalists with community questions. And to celebrate Bubbler Talk's 10th anniversary, we're listening back to some of our favorite episodes. And on the podcast, I'm chatting with the WUWM reporters and producers who created them. Today, we're listening to a story about an old Milwaukee restaurant that featured dolphins with our Environmental Reporter, Susan Bence. Hi, Susan.

Susan Bence: Hi there.

Michelle Maternowski: So we're gonna listen, and then we're going to chat.

Susan Bence: Excellent.

Michelle Maternowski: Okay.

Bubbler Talk Intro: Bubbler Talk, quenching Milwaukee's thirst for knowledge.

Susan Bence: I'm Susan Bence. I was standing on the windy corner of 4th and Mitchell Streets on Milwaukee's near south side with listener Rob Bueno.

Rob Bueno: My question is, whatever happened to the public nanatorium that housed dolphins and seals?

Susan Bence: Rob's talking about the South Side Natatorium that was built in 1894. The two-story, Italian Renaissance-style building had showers and bathrooms along its first floor perimeter and dressing rooms on the balcony. Today, the building is gone, replaced by a park named for a nearby funeral home owner. City leaders built seven natatoriums in the late 19th century in an effort to, in their words, “encourage healthful swimming and cleanliness facilities for those not fortunate enough to have their own baths.” Rob Bueno remembers what came after people stopped splashing in the natatorium in 1977. Paintings of dolphins appeared on the building's exterior, which he saw when he would ride in his grandfather's car.

Rob Bueno: So it sparked my interest and I really wanted to know, maybe it's a fish store or whatever it was. So I started asking questions at an early age, and then begrudgingly, I think he agreed to take me there.

Susan Bence: Rob has no memory of what he and his grandfather ate at what had become the public natatorium. That was the restaurant's name.

Rob Bueno: But I do remember that the glass... We sat at a table right up against the glass and watched the happenings in the pool. And it was just so bizarre because here you are, in what used to be a swimming pool.

Susan Bence: So Rob wondered about the fate of the restaurant and that of its sea creatures. We head to a downtown Milwaukee ad agency for some answers.

Andy Gorzalski: I'm Andy Gorzalski, I'm a producer and filmmaker from Milwaukee, and I had first heard about the Natatorium kind of just through loose word of mouth from people who had been there once or twice, and then ultimately, through these sort of obsessive posts about it on the Old Milwaukee Facebook group.

Susan Bence: Andy set out to learn more about the man behind the project, Milwaukee native John Garlic. Now he plans to create a documentary on the subject. So it was the man that stood out first, or the natatorium, or a combination?

Andy Gorzalski: Well, I think the natatorium and putting dolphins inside of a swinging ‘70s supper club stands out first. But then when you go down these other layers and you find out how charismatic and amazing John Garlic was, I mean, I think that becomes the true story of this dreamer and that, you know, the restaurant just manifests itself out of him.

Rob Bueno: Has anybody ever mentioned the juxtaposition of the food versus the smell of an aquarium? I have that vivid memory of walking in with my grandfather and going, “Wow, we're gonna have a burger, and it smells like an aquarium.”

Susan Bence: Garlic was an entrepreneur. He sold Cadillacs, lots of them. He masterminded a gyros plant that distributed the Greek delicacy across the country. Plus, he created a popular restaurant in Milwaukee called J.J. Garlic’s. Then came the natatorium. In 1978, John and his wife Margaret purchased it for $4,000 and sunk hundreds of thousands more into enclosing his pool with glass – the glass Rob Bueno remembers pressing his nose up against. The garlics procured and cared for two dolphins. Their water had to be salty like the sea, and just the right temperature. But by the beginning of 1985, the wild venture went belly up. And a few years later, the once elegant building itself vanished from the landscape. What about Rob Bueno's questions about the animals?

Andy Gorzalski: I know every attempt for the security and care of the animals was always at the very best intention and effort throughout the life of it. I know at the end there was a couple weeks during the Chapter 11 where I think, on a couple days, the temperature dipped up and down and they put some effort behind air vacuuming them back to Florida and they were on these little stretcher things. It's kind of an incredible visual, like being rescued out of a place. Once they were transported, they lived a happy long life, I think back at Marine Land in Florida.

Susan Bence: I got a slightly different account from Bruce Marquardt. I reached him by phone. He now lives in Arizona, but Bruce worked at public natatorium, first as a waiter. Then, Bruce says, he weaseled his way into working with the Dolphins. Despite long hours – 12-hour days, six days a week – Bruce loved the work.

Bruce Marquardt: It was so much fun.

Susan Bence: And the dolphins, their names? Scotch and Soda.

Bruce Marquardt: Scotch and Soda and I all learned together, which was very unique. They didn't know anything. We taught them from scratch, and they taught us about them.

Susan Bence: Bruce says, sadly, one of the dolphins, Scotch, died.

Bruce Marquardt: And they bought a sea lion and tried to mix it into the act, which didn't work. You'll never see dolphins and sea lions performing in the same pool. And then they closed. Bankrupt.

Susan Bence: A few years later, after he had moved west, Bruce had an unexpected reunion. He discovered Soda, not in Florida, but at an amusement park south of Los Angeles.

Bruce Marquardt: We went there and there she was. I got to go back, and she knew who I was. After three years, she knew exactly who I was. And I was showing them the things that I would do with her that they didn't know she knew. It was like a reunion. I was crying.

Susan Bence: Back in Milwaukee, filmmaker Andy Gozalski says there's a little known fact our Bubbler Talk person, Rob Bueno, should hear: the Garlic's motivation to create a mini, marine world in Milwaukee. Andy says it was a thank you gift to their hometown after the success of their other Milwaukee restaurant, J.J. Garlic’s.

Andy Gorzalski: They were so thankful and grateful for how successful J.J. Garlic’s was. They never took that for granted. They've actually said this was sort of their gift back to Milwaukee. They wanted to do something that was kind of out there and crazy that no one else was doing in. Let's be good, back in the way that we know how.

Susan Bence: So do you think that would have tempered your grandfather's opinion, had he known it?

Rob Bueno: Absolutely, and it's the first thing I'm thinking about now. The motivation behind that, it most definitely could have changed his mind, to put him in a better mindset about the project.

Susan Bence: There's one more voice we want to add to the public natatorium story. After it folded, John Garlic moved to Florida and recreated himself. This time, he sold real estate. John has since died, but his son Ian says the family stayed put in Florida. Ian says his parents were always working. So when he saw his dad, it was in the world of dolphins and exotic birds. He vividly remembers birthday parties there.

Ian Garlic: They’d have all the kids there. They have clowns and stuff, but also the dolphin shows and all the animals, because there's always birds and stuff. My dad had a pet macaw that was always with him and was also known for like going into the bathrooms and going under stalls and terrorizing people. That was one of the memories too. It was pretty vivid.

Susan Bence: Ian says he carries his dad's joy in living with him, and, Ian says, his resilience.

Ian Garlic: I mean, for me, being an entrepreneur, I've seen the ups and downs, so I'm not afraid of the downs. You know stuff's going to go wrong. You just keep going.

Michelle Maternowski: Where to even begin?

Susan Bence: Just like yesterday.

Michelle Maternowski: It's like, it's so incredible that this place ever even existed. What stands out to you listening back to this story?

Susan Bence: Well, you know, I have to admit I'm tempered now, because I've talked to somebody else who's working on this project who actually heard our story, or found our story. Can I jump into that?

Michelle Maternowski: Oh, sure, yeah. Let's not leave it a mystery.

Susan Bence: This is an Appleton-based artist and, I think, fledgling filmmaker.

Michelle Maternowski: And this is different than the... Is this the person you talked to in the story, or is this a different person?

Susan Bence: This is a different, who I just spoke with recently. His name is Oliver Franklin Anderson.

Michelle Maternowski: Okay.

Susan Bence: Remember that. So as a kid in Appleton, he wanted to be a marine biologist. So he always had an interest. And he was looking, as an adult now, like three, four years ago and finding out what other marine parks there might have been for marine animals around the Great Lakes. And so he happened on our story.

Michelle Maternowski: Okay.

Susan Bence: Then he realized that his own father, Mr. Anderson, worked with Andy Gorzalski. They worked together for a period of time years back, not on this, but in Milwaukee. So he thought, “Oh my gosh, I know this guy.” The documentary had not gone anywhere. He either dropped it or set it aside. So he reached out to Andy, the original documentary guy we spoke with, and said, “Could I take this project in? I'm really interested in it.” So, he's been working on it for the last three years, and apparently it's gonna come out in 2027. We have a little tape of my conversation with him.

Michelle Maternowski: Okay.

Oliver Franklin Anderson: I tried initially to make this as a short film, and it just didn't work because it was so incomplete. You just have to ask more questions about it. And now I'm at this point where I know almost everything about it, and I have this huge top-down view of this huge, sprawling piece of Milwaukee history that's gone.

Susan Bence: So he'd like to not only, of course, get his documentary out, but he thinks that Milwaukee should have a plaque at that site in honor of the animals who...

Michelle Maternowski: Scotch and soda?

Susan Bence: Well, and there were many more.

Michelle Maternowski: Okay.

Susan Bence: Yeah. In fact, he thinks that one dolphin may still be alive.

Michelle Maternowski: Really?

Susan Bence: Yes. Teaser!

Michelle Maternowski: I got chills.

Susan Bence: Yeah, it was an incredible story.

Michelle Maternowski: Yeah, I feel like it's, it's become like legend at this point, where it's like, do you remember, have you gone to...?

Susan Bence: And of course, I never did. You said you used to drive by with your mom?

Michelle Maternowski: Yeah, I remember as a kid driving downtown with my mom, when we would be driving kind of like past the Basilica, on the other side of the road, she'd be like, “That's where the dolphin restaurant used to be.” And so like as a child, I'm like, “What are you even talking about? A dolphin restaurant?” So it's so fun listening back to these stories of this place that used to exist and kind of how it keeps...the story lives on. So how did the new documentary, how did you get in touch with him?

Susan Bence: He actually reached out to us looking for more information, if we had it. And he's still trying to talk... He's interviewed 40 different people. He found someone in Michigan who was a waitress, but also did the artwork. You know, there's lots of sort of intricate artwork that was involved in painting on this glass, and she did that, and it's quite a story.

Michelle Maternowski: Were there other... So there was like a Marine Park era in the ‘70s?

Susan Bence: Yes, apparently there was.

Michelle Maternowski: Okay.

Susan Bence: Yes.

Michelle Maternowski: Okay, well...

Susan Bence: Of course that's controversial. I mean, not everybody would be keen about...

Michelle Maternowski: I think you kind of got into that a little bit with the question-asker, his grandfather and him being hesitant to take him there. So where, what was, was it about the treatment of the animals or where, where was the controversy in it?

Susan Bence: Part of it is that, you know, to be honest, I always thought that this was at least like a big swimming pool. But apparently, those natatoriums were really meant to help people stay clean. So it was shallow and then a deep part. So imagine having a couple dolphins in there. That's not too great. So the sense that I got – and Oliver and I haven't talked extensively – is that I think that the people caring for the animals cared for them. They loved them. But the setting wasn't too great. And also people were learning as they went along, I think.

Michelle Maternowski: Rather than like a trained professional who knows the treatment of dolphins?

Susan Bence: Yeah, so Oliver calls garlic the P.T. Barnum of Milwaukee.

Michelle Maternowski: So I looked back through our Bubbler Talk archive and you've reported out 22 Bubbler Talk stories. So I think that makes you the queen of Bubbler Talk?

Susan Bence: You're the mother, and I'm the queen?

Michelle Maternowski: Yes, I'd like to give you this crown.

Susan Bence: Thank you.

Michelle Maternowski: You've helped solve mysteries, you got to go into some really neat places, you've shared forgotten histories. So besides this dolphin story, are there any other stories that really stick out in your mind, or that you hold on to as like a little favorite that you've done?

Susan Bence: You know, in terms of our Bubbler History?

Michelle Maternowski: Mhm.

Susan Bence: Yeah. I mean, as I looked back, I realized there were a bunch. But I have to say, this one is not really wonky, but you know, there's a coral, ancient coral reef in Wauwatosa. And I met the two scientists there who just were passionate about the Schoonmaker, that formation. And it is incredible. So, I think that, you know, meeting people like that who's life... I mean, certainly the Schoonmaker wasn't their only area of research, but I mean, they just couldn't talk enough about it. It was just so important to them. And that's contagious, and you know, I think it's contagious in a good way. They sense... They hear that when they hear our stories, and they meet people like them.

Michelle Maternowski: Well, and it really helps create a sense of place because I just went to Metcalfe's yesterday and I was like, “Oh, I know the coral reef is back there.” And it helps you feel very connected to your surroundings to know the story and the ancient history, really, in these spaces. Still, one day I wanna go behind the fence and go closer to it, but I know it's there in the distance.

Susan Bence: Be careful. Remember, you have a family to take care of.

Michelle Maternowski: So you are our beloved environmental reporter, so your main job here at WUWM is reporting on the environment. And I feel like Bubbler Talk is an opportunity to break away from reporting on stories that are about the environment. But as I look through your 22 stories, you've done a lot of stories connected to the environment.

Susan Bence: You wanna know why?

Michelle Maternowski: Why you love the environment so much?

Susan Bence: Well, it's what we've got. We want to preserve it. I think that in terms of Bubbler Talk and my trying to do my job, there is so much to cover. And so it's another opportunity and a different angle, and I think often a more lighthearted approach to covering some of those things.

Michelle Maternowski: Yeah, some of those things are pretty heavy. So, what makes Bubbler Talk and our community engagement reporting so special are the question-askers that we're able to bring along on these stories, like Robert Bueno. And I have a favorite story of yours that I feel like I need to mention. And while it isn't Bubbler Talk, I would say it's like Bubble Talk's cousin, because it's from Beats Me, which is a series where listeners submit questions for our beat reporters. And in this question, someone asked if the Milwaukee River was swimmable, and your question-asker brought along his swimsuit to the interview. So then when he found out that like, okay, the conditions in the river are actually okay today to go swimming, he jumped in and went swimming. And it's like one of my like all time favorite stories, so like, I guess what is it like in general bringing along a question asker on your reporting trips, and then to have something like that happen?

Susan Bence: Yeah, it's a thrill, you know? Because you don't know. You've talked to the person in advance. You tell them what you basically have in mind and what you aim to do, but there's unknowns. You don't how it's gonna go. It could be a dud. It could not be magic. But in that case, and in many cases, it is magic, because people are so thrilled to be included in the scene, whether they speak or not. I find – I bet you do – that oftentimes people have not only a concern, but a connection to the question that they're asking and so they really are thrilled to have that story shared. And that's just, it feeds your creativity and your, you know, your love of, our love of what we're doing I think.

Michelle Maternowski: Yeah, there's usually a deeper level onto why someone asked the question, whether it's like connected to their memory or something that happened in their life.

Susan Bence: This guy just couldn't get enough water.

Michelle Maternowski: He just needed to get it. He was part fish.

Susan Bence: I think he is. He does. He swims Lake Michigan, and yeah.

Michelle Maternowski: Well, Susan, thank you so much for going down memory lane with me, and thank you to our listeners. It's you who've made this series so great. So a sincere thank you for the questions that you've sent our way, and keep them coming. You can send us yours at wuwm.com/bubblertalk. So, Robert Bueno, if you have another question, you know where to go. And you can subscribe to the Bubbler Talk podcast as we continue to listen back to our favorite episodes for this 10th anniversary.

Audrey Nowakowski: And that wraps up today's show. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. If you've missed any of Lake Effect this week, you can find all of our conversations at www.wuwm.com. If you'd like to take us on the go, just download the Lake Effect podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Tomorrow on Lake Effect, we'll look at the racial achievement gap here in Wisconsin schools and learn what's being done about it. Thank you so much for joining us today, right here on listener-supported 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR.