Tuesday 9/1/26: The big flood one year later, helping monarch butterflies, ECO MKE

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Audrey Nowakowski: From 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR, this is Lake Effect. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. Today, we look at ways community organizers are helping those impacted by last summer's historic flooding. Then we look a local restoration project that's supporting monarch butterflies.

Barb Agnew: Last year we planted this whole section, and it was buckthorn and nothing else. And it is now perfect for migrating monarchs.

Audrey Nowakowski: Plus, we'll tell you about a new store in Milwaukee selling eco-friendly home goods and refillable products.

Kayla Bouma: You come in, and if you know that you want refills and you brought clean and dry containers to put things in, place your order. There's a refill menu on the wall that tells you all of the different products that we have.

Audrey Nowakowski: All that's coming up on Lake Effect. This is Lake Effect from 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. Thanks for joining us. The historic floods last August caused more than 240 million dollars in damage in the Milwaukee area. Since then, community organizers have started hosting flood resilience events. The goal is to provide a space for Milwaukeeans to share their personal stories of loss and advocate for solutions. Richard Diaz is the water infrastructure field manager with Blue Green Alliance, a nonprofit focused on environmental issues. Diaz is helping organize the Milwaukee Justice Strategy Blitz events related to flood resilience. He joins WUWM's Eddie Morales to talk about what he hopes to accomplish.

Richard Diaz: In August last year, I was like, "Wow, it finally happened," right? Like you hear these various reports of more annual precipitation. In fact, the day it happened, I'm like, "This is out of this world," right? Milwaukee, in my lifetime, hasn't experienced nothing this severe. You know, we have had previous floods like the ones back in I think it was 2010 where that happened, but nothing where everyone is feeling something and people are in shock and there's these atmospheric rivers all over the place, because of the impermeable surfaces that are incapable of capturing water. So it was very, very gut wrenching.

Eddie Morales: What else did you notice and observe? How eager were people to sort of gather and talk around this issue, and what went into organizing that Milwaukee Justice Strategy Blitz event?

Richard Diaz: You know, we had the Strategy Blitz in May, and, you know, it was an idea that I had, following both the August flooding events and then also the one this past May. And ideally, it was to create a space for people impacted by flooding, kind of like a network for folks to learn each other's stories and build community, right? Like, people are connected in their immediate neighborhoods and talk to their various neighbors about what happened. And in some spaces, some neighbors are like, "Oh, I didn't get that much in my basement." Or some neighbors were like, "we lost every single thing and some." And at the Milwaukee Justice Strategy Blitz, you got to bring together some impacted folks who had the most extreme stories and had suffered the most amount of loss. I saw you interviewed Edgar Mendez, right? Like, him and his wife, Jamie Chapman lost two vehicles that were fairly new. You know, the vehicle that they lost in April was just purchased. So it's bringing together folks like that, and North Side folks, South Side folks, Black folks, Latinx folks to come together and learn about what has happened. Another significant piece of the Milwaukee Justice Strategy Blitz was folks learning from communities in Houston that had experienced very, very similar devastation from flooding from Hurricane Harvey and learning how they organized and were able to coalition-build and go after policy wins to help protect people and create a mobilizing force that can hold elected officials at all tiers of government accountable.

Eddie Morales: Yeah, that's something I noticed is just a lot more public involvement when it comes to local government level of public comments being a little bit longer, people sharing their opinions during those opportunities at meetings. What are some of the things that you've seen become immediate results of this community organizing, and what do you hope to see in the near future?

Richard Diaz: Well, we're still in the beginning stages. We're going to have part two of the strategy blitz on September 23rd. And we want to make sure that we are true to the original form and function of this idea, which is: I think we capped it at 60 people, in which 60% of those folks are directly impacted. We don't have a shortage of policy organizations, and we don't a shortage non-profit staffers doing service work. What we have is a shortage people live and breathe the impacts of some of these issues and are willing to build their capacity to lead from where they are. So we are going to continue to organize and build the vehicle. We're in the stages of developing a policy platform based off of what we heard from folks. We know that MMSD has has really done a good job of trying to learn from community members and organizations about, you know, how we should become a more flood resilient community. But MMSD can't be the only public sector partner involved in this, right? Like, we need to see more action from the city, from the county, and from the state. And there's definitely a play that the community can make to support those public sector systems and also create a network for residents impacted, so that they can be educated on what to do when those situations happen and various resources that they can utilize to respond and also hopefully mitigate some of the stormwater that hits their property during flooding events.

Eddie Morales: Yeah, so what did you learn, and some of the organizers as well, from hosting this event, and what is the ongoing process of this as well?

Richard Diaz: Yeah, I guess the biggest takeaway is that it's multifaceted, right? Like there needs to be a certain level of investment and project prioritization at the local level to ensure that communities most at risk for flooding are being prioritized where public infrastructure projects happen. You know, folks often talked about how old and outdated pieces of our sewer are and, you know, why is it taking so long for our sewer to become updated? You know, people also talk about the need for recovery, right? As much as we need prevention to help, you know, absorb some of the rainwater and potentially mitigate the risk when disaster strikes, we need to have a recovery and response system that is able to move quick and expediently. We also know that the state of Wisconsin, like various other states, typically doesn't invest in its state revolving fund. It doesn't utilize its own revenue outside of the 20% match required by the Safe Drinking Water and Clean Water Act to house the state revolving fund. So you know, there's a state angle in there that needs to be taken up. And of course, federally, right, you know we need the expansion of FEMA and not the rescission of the important federal programs that are able to help respond and also able to provide prevention measures.

Eddie Morales: Is there anything else you'd like to add that I didn't ask or that we didn't talk about?

Richard Diaz: This definitely is an equity issue, right? We know from publicly available data before the flood and after the flood that it's poor folks, it's people of color that are directly impacted. And those are the folks we wanna work with. We wanna work those that have the horror stories and train them up so that they can advocate for a comprehensive update to our water infrastructure and protections for residents in their homes.

Audrey Nowakowski: Richard Diaz is the Water Infrastructure Field Manager with Blue-Green Alliance. He spoke with WUWM's Eddie Morales. You can find more information on the next Strategy Blitz on September 23rd at www.wuwm.com. Many homeowners impacted by last year's floods were met with busy signals or long wait times when trying to seek help with water removal. And while people waited for the local and federal government to take action, a group of men took to the streets helping where they could. They unclogged city drains, helped neighbors drain their basements and backyards, and they did it all for free. One year later, WUWM's Jimmy Gutierrez checks in with those volunteers to see how their work has continued and evolved. Here's Jimmy talking with Aziz Abdullah.

Jimmy Gutierrez: Before everything went down with the floods last year, what did you know about water restoration and all the work that you and your guys were doing?

Aziz Abdullah: Nothing, Nothing. Yeah, no. But I mean, fortunately we had ran into somebody who was doing it at their house, and I just got out the car and asked him, "Yo, what is this called that you have?" And then I started on a mad dash looking for it. We didn't even know how to use it at first. We had to like... Somebody had to come down, show us how to use it, and then once we learn how to do it, I mean we were rocking and rolling. But I mean, that's not what I do for a living. But, you know, at that time, it was just a fortunate moment of being able to show up in a way where we could support individuals. Y'all, so this basement, this basement was full full. Up to our chest. I think for me, the most impactful piece of the puzzle was getting young people involved in the process of a needed service at a time where needs were high. I think one of our young people named KP, he's been working with us now for over a year and a half. You know, he went from cleaning up houses and cleaning up flood debris and removing water to becoming a youth ambassador. And now he works with us on a lawn maintenance, pay-what-you-can service called Hustle and Mow. So we run an essentially free lawn care service to community, and he works on that now.

Jimmy Gutierrez: Last year, we had this thousand year flood. We had more flooding this spring, obviously disproportionately affecting marginalized Milwaukee, Black Milwaukee, the South Side of Milwaukee. When it comes to investing, when it comes seeing our communities grow, seeing our community heal, what is it that you want to see, not just for the city of Milwaukee, but for the people of Milwaukee?

Aziz Abdullah: I don't know if it's because of the day you caught me on, my day started off heavy. And my days are heavy. So this summer, it became the catalyst from working on that project. You know, I maybe employ 120 young people on three, four different projects. I mean, I got a crew called Hustle and Mow, I got a crew called the Handyman Academy, I got a crew working at Alice's Garden called Grow Rich, and I got the crew called The Paper Team. The Paper team are my kiddos who have a hard time in those other programs that I kind of create a more isolated environment for them. And I'm working with kids who show up, every time they show up they got on the same outfit. They don't take their hat off because they're ashamed of the way their hair looks. Some of them, before, when I used to work with them, they wouldn't take they're mask off because they didn't want anybody to really see their face. So the reason it's a little bit of a triggering question for me today is: the physical environment of Milwaukee is no different than the manifestation of like the family and the home structure of people right now. And so like, there is no government, no politician, no policy that fills the gap for showing up for each other. My hope for Milwaukee, my hope for people, my hopes for our children, especially from those who are coming from the most marginalized environments, is that they recognize that they're worthy, even if that only means that you wake up and you go clean up the area around your house. That is a significant impact, not only on your own self, but on the environment around you.

Audrey Nowakowski: That was Aziz Abdullah, co-founder of InPower Solutions. He spoke with WUWM's Jimmy Gutierrez. Need some flexibility for when you listen? You can listen to Lake Effect on demand. Find it as a podcast wherever you like to listen, to download and enjoy on the go. In about 15 minutes, we'll tell you how you can safely observe and care for caterpillars in your backyard. But first, we'll tell you about some land in Wauwatosa that's being transformed into a habitat for monarch butterflies. That's coming up next on Lake Effect on WUWM. You're listening to Lake Effect on 89.7 WUWM. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. A group called Friends of the Monarch Trail has worked for almost 20 years to restore monarch butterfly habitat. They're doing it on 22 acres of land on the County Grounds Park in Wauwatosa. Butterflies stop there this time of year on their migration south to Mexico for the winter. Wauwatosa resident and Friends of the Monarch Trail founder, Barb Agnew, met with WUWM environmental reporter Susan Bence at the park to share more about their restoration work.

Susan Bence: Was it really the monarch that you were, that you first... Were you looking for it, or did you realize it was here, and the monarch just spoke to you?

Barb Agnew: I've always raised butterflies. So when I came out to peruse the gardens for various caterpillars, there were quite a few that I couldn't find in other places. The county grounds had a vast enough area and enough different little ecosystems and niches that there were butterflies here that you'd have to go pretty far out into Waukesha County to find. So the red-spotted purples, and the viceroys, and the silver-spoted skippers, and there were so many things out here. And I could find a caterpillar, or net the adult female and get her to lay eggs for me, and I'd raise them and release them back out here. So it wasn't the monarchs I was originally coming out for. That just happened to be a delightful, a delightful, uplifting surprise.

Susan Bence: You started bringing people back here?

Barb Agnew: Yes, a little at a time. People I knew, friends, and some of the dog walkers that used to come through, they'd walk through the public gardens. And it was, you know, "How did I walk past this all these years?" Or, "What are you looking at?" And when you pointed to it, they were gobsmacked, because they had no idea that happened here every year.

Susan Bence: This is an August-September thing?

Barb Agnew: This is August and September. It has become later. We had roosts into October two years ago, so the time frame has changed quite a bit.

Susan Bence: Freodtert and Children's and the medical complex is two hours south. That was here in the '90s. But what was surrounding this space at the time when you first visited?

Barb Agnew: There was much more open, natural space.

Susan Bence: Right. And then these buildings, original buildings, that were here that dated back to the, what, 1900s-ish?

Barb Agnew: 1911 is when they opened the historic Eschweiler buildings. And I think, probably, this tree was planted behind one of those buildings.

Susan Bence: When did the front group come to life, and was that before there's since been development? Before that wave began or as it was beginning?

Barb Agnew: As it was beginning. The Friends of the Monarch Trail were officialized in 2008. And we spent many evenings and days at meetings, making sure that we could keep the important parts of all of this, which are the the stands of trees, the open areas for nectaring, and eventually it was preserved.

Susan Bence: Just give an example or an inkling of what it took to protect this. Can you capture it?

Barb Agnew: Early on, it was Milwaukee County and the county board that were going to sell it off. And we went down and said, "No, wait a minute. We want to show you what's here first." And they described it. We had photographs and everything else, and we would go down to these meetings. And eventually, the Parks Department, the lead designer at the time, myself, Sue Borkin of the Museum, of butterfly fame, and Jim Reiner of UWM, we delineated what was most important to be saved. That became the habitat or the conservancy at that time, which is still here.

Susan Bence: Monarch butterflies have had a tough go of it. Where do things stand right now in terms of their population? It's the Eastern?

Barb Agnew: M-hm.

Susan Bence: They fly through here and spend a little time in this spot. How are they doing?

Barb Agnew: I've not seen a lot of monarchs. I've seen quite a few out here on the trail as I'm working. But the past few years, we have had small roosts. We're always hopeful. They've never failed to show up. And last year's was actually really cool, but it was all the way in the back at the far end the trail. And it's hard to get to. So we did get a few pictures, but as for, you know, announcing or being able to show many people, it was difficult to do. We might've had 200 one of the nights, which is a good amount.

Susan Bence: Talk a bit about what habitat is required, how this tree and other trees figure into the time that the monarchs spend here.

Barb Agnew: Migrating creatures, birds and butterflies, follow water, rivers, because that's a lot of times where the resources are for nectaring. And this being the highest elevation in Wauwatosa, they stop here so that they can rest for the night. They use the sycamore for shelter. It's got the canopy. It's gotta ambient heat. It has a windbreak surrounding it. And it's some place where they can nectar a lot. Last year, we planted this whole section. And it was buckthorn and nothing else, and it is now perfect for migrating monarchs. The diversity is beautiful. I want people to come out and look and feel what they're seeing.

Susan Bence: You talked about the work that has gone on right here at our feet. But we'll go to the west side where there's other work.

Barb Agnew: Yeah.

Susan Bence: Let's go over there.

Barb Agnew: Alright.

Susan Bence: So we're now on the West Side. We see the traffic, you know, in front of us. And so, describe where we are in the whole scheme of this oasis.

Barb Agnew: We're now on DOT property, Department of Transportation property, and we've done many major improvements out here. One of them, we had our ecologist come out. And she pulled and cut everything that was undesirable. And then I came out and shaved the top of it, so it was down to the soil. And then we drilled holes in for the plants. And we had many volunteers come to help us plug about, I think we had, maybe 600 or 800 plants to put in. And people were just wonderful. One girl came. It was her birthday, and there was nothing else she wanted to do except come out here on the Monarch Trail and help plant. And it has turned out really amazing. We always do a cover crop when we have little plants, and that's Zinnia. So the colors are just delightful. The butterflies are attracted to it. Monarchs, Swallowtails, Eastern-Tailed Blues, there have been many of those out here, and the Silver-Spotted Skippers and Hummingbird Clear-Wing Moths. We've also planted a few trees to help replace the dying trees in this circle here, which had become somewhat of a roost area. They still try to use it, but there are small groups of five or ten that come in here in September. If it's a bigger roost site and we can get the population back up, it'll once again be a beautiful roost site.

Susan Bence: So there's more than monarch magic happening here. What are we looking at?

Barb Agnew: We're looking at incredible Sacropia caterpillars. The larvae for that big, beautiful moth gets huge. And it's quite spectacular in and of itself. The sage green, and it's got red and yellow and blue, horns and tutors and whatever else, and they get really, really big. I see some of them are starting to make cocoons.

Susan Bence: And so why do you put this net up?

Barb Agnew: The net allows them to eat naturally. It would be very hard to keep cutting willow and keeping it from wilting. And hydration is one of the most important things for caterpillars. They don't drink water. They get all their moisture from their food. So if the food doesn't have enough moisture, the caterpillers will eventually die. But these are in need of another big stem of willow.

Susan Bence: And then what happens?

Barb Agnew: The cocoons, we bring them in.

Susan Bence: And why?

They need winter. So I put them in the refrigerator and tell Dick not to cook them up for dinner. And then, in spring we bring him out and they hatch.

Susan Bence: So my question is: wouldn't they get winter here?

Barb Agnew: They would. But they also would be susceptible to chipmunks, squirrels, deer, anything that comes by and happens to eat it. The other thing is: it's really wonderful to be able to give them to people who have never seen this kind of thing. It's usually a lifetime moment, when they see this huge moth of reds and browns and golds emerge from just this little piece of brown fuzz. It's it's an amazing thing to see. And it kind of renews your hope in nature. Maybe it helps all generations value what is out here now and the need to protect it. It's an amazing part of our world, and the more we can convince people of that, the better off the whole planet will be.

Audrey Nowakowski: Barb Agnew is the founder of the Friends of the Monarch Trail. She spoke with WUWM Environmental Reporter Susan Bence. You can help butterflies and moths in your own backyard. While some insects might be unwelcome guests in your green space, some, like caterpillars and butterflies. Can bring joy to any backyard. PJ Leisch is an extension entomologist at UW-Madison. He joins Lake Effect's Becky Mortensen to talk about the caterpillers and butterflies you can observe at home, and how you can support them.

Becky Mortensen: So to start, PJ, I'm just going to share a story. Earlier this summer, I found a tiny caterpillar on my dill plant in my backyard. It looked a little bit like a worm when I first noticed it, and I was able to determine that it was a Black Swallowtail Caterpillar. And I watched this little guy for about two weeks, and I was really enjoying watching him grow and change. And I really looking forward to seeing him eventually become a butterfly. But unfortunately, he did not make it. But I want to help others who may be seeing caterpillars in their backyard learn how to safely observe and care for them. So, my first question for you is about identification. There are all kinds of apps and like AI you can use to identify plants and animals. So, if someone does spot what they think is a caterpillar in their yard, what is the best way to identify that caterpillar.

PJ Leisch: Yeah, that's a great question. Sometimes you will bump into a caterpillar that can be very conspicuous and can be easy to identify through various field guides and guidebooks. But there are also, as you mentioned, some apps that can do a decent job at identifying insects. I will say, though, there are a lot of caveats associated with identifying insects such as caterpillars. The first is that the field guides tend to show the common species. And so, again, if you bump into something that is uncommon or rare, it's probably gonna be a lot harder to find a picture of that. And along that same thread, the smartphone apps, they're gonna be based on a data set that they have learned from, of photographs, and they only know what they've been trained on. And so if you bump into an uncommon or rare species that the app hasn't seen or encountered before, it probably will not be able to identify that. So again, there are resources. There is a website called iNaturalist, which has a smartphone app called Seek that I use. It's fun to play with, but I will say as a cautionary tale, I do see that app make errors quite regularly, especially with insects that are relatively small. So you do have to kind of take that with a grain of salt. Some additional clues that I look at, if I'm working towards a diagnosis for something, and full disclosure, so as an entomologist, my main job is to run a diagnostic lab to identify insects. I've been doing this for well over a decade. And so, not only do I look at maybe what an app says or what field guides are suggesting as an ID, but I make sure to cross check additional clues. What is the host plant, for example? Because many caterpillars are very host plant-specific, or in a nutshell, they're picky eaters. You'll find them on your dill, but you won't find them feeding on an oak tree. Also things like the time of the year. Is it spring? Is it late summer or fall? And check details like that to help confirm the identity of the caterpillar that you're seeing.

Becky Mortensen: So once you've spotted and identified a caterpillar, what are some of the best practices for how to observe them, and maybe create the best environment possible for them to hopefully, eventually become a butterfly?

PJ Leisch: Yeah. And I guess, just to set the stage a little bit, so in Wisconsin, we have somewhere in the ballpark of around 20,000 different insect species. We don't have an exact count, and that number does kind of inch upwards over time as new things are found in the state. So 20,000 or so insect species overall known from Wisconsin. Of those, we may have several thousand that are members of the order Lepidoptera. These are the moths and butterflies. And in Wisconsin as a whole, we've got maybe a hundred or more species of butterflies, but the vast majority of members of that group are moths, essentially. And evolutionarily speaking, butterflies are basically highly evolved day-flying moths. That's just a minor side note. And so a couple of thoughts. If you find one caterpillar and you're particularly interested in it, it can make sense to maybe bring that indoors in a container if you wish. You will have to provide it with fresh food from the host plant that it was found on. Again, being picky eaters, if you completely change host plants from dill to an oak leaf, for example, it's probably not going to survive, actually most likely not going to survive. Even if you have a caterpillar species that has some wiggle room in terms of what it'll feed on, usually once they start feeding on a particular plant, that's what they just kind of get used to eating. And so we wanna give them that. They will generally get their moisture that they need from the plant foliage that they feed on. Another option would be to either leave them in place on the plants, let them do their natural thing out in nature so they can be exposed to the environmental cues, sunset times and things like that. If you are concerned about them, you know, possibly falling prey to a predator parasite outdoors, another consideration would be to get like a mesh bag or mesh sleeve that could be placed over part of the plant and kind of tied off. That way it has some protection, so predators and parasites are less likely to it in and be able to attack it and you can still rear it and observe it out in its natural setting on its host plant that you spotted it on.

Becky Mortensen: And you mentioned earlier the different phases. So what can people expect to see while observing a backyard caterpillar? What kind of things should people look for as time goes on?

PJ Leisch: Yeah, so it'll depend a little bit on the species. But when we talk about both moths and butterflies, this group we call the order Lepidoptera, they go through complete metamorphosis. So they would start out as an egg, generally laid on a host plant. And adult females that lay those eggs, they have ways to essentially gauge the health of that plant, make sure it's going to be a good bet for their offspring to survive on. And so they lay eggs. The eggs will hatch, usually a short while later. Might be a few days or a week or more. Out of the egg, you'd get your very small caterpillar, which initially might be a millimeter or a couple of millimeters long. So we're talking like a tenth of an inch. And then they will go through these developmental sub-stages as caterpillars or larvae. And they get progressively bigger and bigger. Now, throughout this larval phase, they are feeding, they are growing and developing. When they are young caterpillers, early instars, they essentially have small tummies. They are not consuming that much leaf material. As they get to the later instars, maybe a fifth or sixth instar, they reach this tipping point. And the analogy I make, it's like: folks get to be their teenage years, and all of a sudden they can consume an entire large pizza because they're just hungry. They're growing. And same thing goes on with caterpillars. So they will do most of their feeding, like 80 to 90% of their feeding, in those later instars. If it is a pest species, that can mean that it seems like the damage shows up almost overnight. Long story short though, you have the caterpillar larvae. They feed, feed, feed, grow, and develop. They get to that pupal stage. Depending on the species, if it's a butterfly, we call the pupal stage a chrysalis. Those are usually in exposed locations, often on the plant or in the nearby surrounding areas. If it is a moth, it may form a cocoon on the plants or in the nearby area. Many moth species will actually go down to the soil, burrow into the soil a little bit to pupate. It's a little more protected there. And then after the pupil stage, we would get the adult moth or butterfly emerging. And the exact minute details of that are gonna vary from species to species.

Becky Mortensen: Okay, good to know. If there are others like me who want to attract caterpillars to their yard, what are some of the best ways to do that?

PJ Leisch: Yeah, so one of the best approaches is to put out the particular plants that those caterpillars need to feed on to go about and complete their life cycle. And we talked about this a little bit earlier, but as an example, if you want to help monarch caterpillers, you're gonna need to have some milkweed in your yard for those caterpillar to feed on. And if you don't have milkweed, well, you just don't have the food that the caterpillars need. And along those lines, there's this whole concept of butterfly gardening. Sometimes folks are trying to help very specific species of butterflies. You could do the same thing for moths as well. And if you want to help a certain species of butterfly, you have to put out the host plant that it needs. So at the beginning of the show, you mentioned the Black Swallowtail caterpillars, which can pop up on dill and related plants from the carrot family. And so, again, if you want those around, you're gonna need to plant the dill or other plants from that group. And so that's one suggestion is to look, hop online, dig into books on butterfly gardening. And if there's a certain species you're really interested in or you wanna help, you're going to have to incorporate some of the necessary plants for the caterpillars. Another approach would be to not necessarily specifically help the caterpillar, but if you put out a wide range of nectar plants, you may be providing resources for the adults. That's one thing you could do. In general, the greater the plant diversity you have in your yard, you're simply offering more items on the buffet, so to speak. And so if you have those picky eaters, but you have their host plant, that is gonna increase the chances that they show up and an adult female lays eggs on those particular plants. So again, having a diversity of plants in your yard can be one of the simplest things that you can do. We also have had some shifts over time, because for a long time, our way of thinking was we need to put out things like native perennial flowers to help out some of these insects that are out there, be it caterpillars or other insects, but our thoughts on this are changing a little bit. There has been some research by Dr. Doug Tallamy and colleagues. They surveyed the literature for host plant records of caterpillars and host plants. And they basically found that for all these, this long list of caterpillar species, there were certain types of plants that give you the most bang for your buck. And what I mean for that is if you put in some of these keystone plants, you can support potentially hundreds of different caterpillar species with one plant. Now that's... It doesn't mean they're necessarily going to show up, but at least you have the food for them. And it turns out that on that host plant list, the number one type of plant that was out there to help or at least serve as a potential food source for caterpillars was oak trees. Oaks had the longest list of caterpillers that were known to be associated with it. There are some plants out there that support few if any caterpillars. And then oaks were the champion in that regard. And so, with that said, if you are really trying to help caterpillars as a whole, having something like an oak tree, an aspen tree, a willow tree can provide a lot of resources for a lot species out there. They might not be as catchy and pretty as some of our flowering plants, but they're offering what those insects need.

Becky Mortensen: Well, PJ, this has been incredibly helpful, and I really appreciate you sharing all of this information. Thank you so much for joining me on Lake Effect.

PJ Leisch: Yeah, Becky. Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure.

Audrey Nowakowski: PJ Leisch is an extension entomologist at UW-Madison. He spoke with Lake Effect's Becky Mortensen earlier this summer. You can find more tips on how to help butterflies thrive at wuwm.com. We'll take one more break and then tell you about a place in Milwaukee that can help you cut down on buying products that come in plastic containers. Keep listening to Lake Effect on Milwaukee's NPR. This is Lake Effect on Milwaukee's NPR. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. If you're trying to live a more plastic-free life, Milwaukee's new refillery might be for you. At Eco MKE Refillery, you can bring in a reusable container like a mason jar or glass jug and buy refills of dish soap, detergent, body wash, and more. Kayla Bouma is the owner and founder of Eco MKE. She says her new brick and mortar in the third ward also sells sustainable home goods like bamboo utensils, dryer balls, and toothpaste tablets. Bouma joins Lake Effect's Xcaret Nuñez to share more about her business and how people can implement eco-friendly habits in their everyday lives.

Xcaret Nuñez: We're sitting here together at your first brick-and-mortar, but I want to backtrack and talk about how we got here. How did you first become interested in sustainable living? Were you always environmentally-conscious?

Kayla Bouma: No, not always. I grew up in a household where we used paper towels left and right for every little spill, constantly using plastic sandwich bags. I feel like we did reuse a lot of things naturally, like my mom was always saving things to use them for something else. But other than that, I didn't really know much about sustainability. So yeah, it wasn't really until college that I started to really think about it. I was really interested in psychology and sociology, and I happened to have a professor at Carroll who had, a lot of his classes that he taught, talked about like our relationship with the planet, how we impact the planet as humans, which I thought was really cool. And then I ended up kind of changing my major a little bit. And I ended with a Bachelor's in sociology and an emphasis in environmental sustainability. And I started making changes with like my personal care and different kitchen items that I use. And I got into health and wellness with sustainability, so those things kind of go together in a lot of ways, because a lot the choices that we can make that are better for the planet are actually better for our health as well. So that's where I started to stop buying so much polyester clothing and buying new clothing, and I started thrift my outfits. I was focusing a little more on what I was eating, trying to make more of my own food, not store and heat so much food and plastic. And making just like little simple switches like that, I noticed a huge difference in my energy and my health and my sleep. And yeah, I was just creating less waste too, which was awesome.

Xcaret Nuñez: So it seems like being sustainable means creating habits in your life that are more environmentally friendly. When did the idea of creating ECO MKE Refillery come up for you?

Kayla Bouma: So it definitely was not always something on my radar to own a refill store. I was always a refiller. So, back in COVID, we had a shop called the Glass Pantry, which later turned into Green Life Trading Company. And it was the first refill store in the Milwaukee area. And definitely was something that was needed. I loved going in there. I was in there all the time. I was always telling my friends about it too. And in college, I started an Instagram where I talk about sustainable living and health and wellness, and I was always posting about them. And it was the day after the Milwaukee location closed that I was like, "Where are people going to go now to get these things? There isn't a place around here." I was so sad, and it wasn't on my radar until then to start something of my own. And I was like, "Okay, if no one else is going to do it, I'm going to figure out how to do this." And that was at the end of 2023. I think in November, December of 2023, that was when I actually got the LLC for Eco MKE. So I was sitting on this idea for a while, like trying to figure out how I was going to make it happen. And I kind of got the push last year in January, February, of 2025, where I was like, "Okay, I'm actually gonna do this. I feel like I've collected enough information and talked to enough people on like what to do." I have never worked in retail before. So all of this was like very new to me, but at the same time, I had been a refiller for so long at the previous refilleries that like, I knew the process and like what products to carry and because I've used all these products myself. Like, I knew what products worked and, like, what didn't. So yeah, we opened in April. I started doing markets throughout April to December. Last year we did 30 markets. So I was pretty much at a market almost every weekend. No brick and mortar yet, even though that was always the question that people always asked was: where are you located? Where can I come refill in person? But then how I came into this space, I always, I wanted the store to be a thing eventually. I just, I didn't want to jump into a brick and mortar right away. I did some consignment with a couple people. Lucy at Indigo Plant Collective, just two doors down from here. I got connected with her. And she shares a lot of the same values as me with sustainability too. So that was really cool. But she invited me to have a shelf at her store, which is just two doors down from this location. And this spot that we're sitting in was available at the time that I was at her place doing a pop-up last year. And she was like, "Oh hey, it'd be cool if we were neighbors." And we kind of just joked about it. But then it turned out that I actually inquired about this place, and I fell in love with it, and it just kind of worked out. So yeah, the secession just kind made sense, of scaling to where we're at now. And definitely couldn't have done any of this without the people that we've met along the way.

Xcaret Nuñez: So walk me through what shopping at a refill store is like. Like how does the refill process work?

Kayla Bouma: Yeah. So at our store, it's a little different compared to other refill stores, I would say, because you walk in and you don't see a bunch of beautiful glass gallon jugs on the table full of soap. We actually do the refilling in the back for people. So what you do is: you come in, and if you know that you want refills and you brought clean and dry containers to put things in, you can come straight to the desk and place your order. There's a refill menu on the wall that tells you all of the different products that we have. So you can tell us how much or how little of a product you want. If you just want to try like an ounce of something, that's an option, versus buying a whole brand new bottle and then having it go to waste. Or you can fill up a half gallon of something. And by doing that, we eliminate a lot of waste and a lot of like cleanup that can sometimes happen, because spills do happen. But it's nice, because then we just take care of them in the back. And then it just kind of helps people that are maybe intimidated with refilling, but we, we do that here for everybody.

Xcaret Nuñez: I'm Lake Effect's Xcaret Nuñez, speaking with Kayla Bouma, owner of Eco MKE Refillery, about her new storefront in Walker's Point. So you started your business by selling at farmers markets in the Milwaukee area, as you were mentioning earlier. What do you envision for this new physical space? Like, what do you hope it brings to the community?

Kayla Bouma: I really want this to be an inclusive, safe space for someone to come in and give sustainability a try. Obviously, we have a lot of people that come in that have been refilling, or they refilled at the previous refill stores that we had. So they're used to it, and they come in, and they know what they want, and they're very happy that we're here. But I also want to attract maybe some people that haven't been introduced to this before. And I want to make it accessible and affordable for them. I would love to eventually host community events and workshops to revolve around sustainability. There's lots of business owners and makers and vendors that I met last year that are just the best people. And I would to have this space be a platform for them as well. We do have a community corner here too. And right now we're collecting like donations for an art swap up there. But yeah, I hope that this is just like a happy place for the community to be able to walk into.

Xcaret Nuñez: Yeah. And I think, as someone who like shops locally, I love being able to attend workshops or events that my favorite stores host and see a different side of them and get to know people who support the same local business, right?

Kayla Bouma: Yeah, absolutely.

Xcaret Nuñez: So, some people might think that living sustainably is an all or nothing lifestyle. Before we wrap up, I was wondering if you could share some easy and affordable tips to approach living more sustainably.

Kayla Bouma: Absolutely. So tip number one would be to use what you have. And I know sometimes that's like frustrating for people to hear, because they are ready to make the switch to stuff and they just... Like, it looks aesthetically pleasing, but truly the most sustainable thing you can do is just to use what you have first, because something doesn't become waste until you waste it, until you make the decision to throw it out. And I think that that's an important thing to realize. Don't be afraid to mess up. It's not about being perfect. If you say that you're going to start packing your lunch every day for work, and then you forget one day, and you have to eat out and then feel bad because you're creating waste from the plastic to-go container or the utensils, like, it's okay. That's just part of life. I feel like just with anything, nothing's ever going to be like 100% perfect all the time. If anything, you can just learn from those situations and learn to be a little more prepared. We do have, like, bamboo cutlery sets that you could keep in your bag or your car. So there's little habits or convenient things that you can sprinkle into your life to kind of help lessen those mistakes, but don't be afraid to make mistakes. It's not an all or nothing thing. I would say another tip would be to start small. The little actions really build up over time. It's kind of like with anything: if you just dive into something completely, or if you go cold turkey on a product that you love, maybe that's not sustainable. Like, you're going to miss it and you're just going to kind of fall back into your old patterns probably. So it's better just to start with like one or two products, see how you like them, and then go from there. And then my last tip is to come see us. We can help you figure out where to start and how to keep your efforts going in the right direction in a sustainable way.

Xcaret Nuñez: Well, Kayla, I really appreciate you telling me more about Eco MKE Refillery. I'm really excited for more people to check out the store.

Kayla Bouma: Thank you. Yeah, it was very nice chatting with you about it. I'm very passionate about it, as you can tell. And I'm really happy to be here.

Audrey Nowakowski: Kayla Bouma is the owner and founder of Eco MKE. She spoke with Lake Effect's Xcaret Nuñez. And that's Lake Effect for today. I'm Audrey Nowakowski. If you've missed any of Lake Effect this week, you can find all of our conversations at www.wuwm.com. If you'd like to take the show on the go, you could download the Lake Effect podcast wherever you get your podcasts. The environmental justice group, Nearby Nature, is almost entirely volunteer run. Now, they've brought on a new executive director to help rebuild the organization. We'll talk with him tomorrow on Lake Effect. Thank you so much for joining us today, right here on listener-supported 89.7 WUWM, Milwaukee's NPR.